It's $3.9 billion. So we lose money on pipelines. We lose money running a bank. Maybe we should get Loblaws to run it for us and they can actually provide a profit. It's remarkable.
I want to touch briefly on overall debt, because we hear the government talk non-stop about it.
I've brought this up at the last two public accounts meetings: net debt versus gross debt. Where are we, in OECD levels, on gross debt when we don't include the assets from the CPP? That's knowing, of course, that we're not going to touch the CPP. I don't believe we should be using it as an asset.
On gross debt, where are we?