Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 12th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mrs. Shanahan, you have the floor.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

We seem to be moving somewhere. I think it might be appropriate to do a timeout at some point, but I just wanted to say that I think we're all well aware, and certainly Mr. McCauley is, that this production of documents is happening at the government operations committee. It is already being done there. It's a huge amount of work, duplication work, work that the Translation Bureau—and maybe that's the intent—is going to be jammed up with, not to mention that our committee here....

This is why I welcome the contribution of Madame Sinclair‑Desgagné in regard to the Auditor General. The Auditor General herself is doing her own audit on this work. She actually has access to documents in a manner that allows her to make a full and thorough investigation. We will have that audit sometime early in the new year.

It is the work of this committee to study the reports of the Auditor General. I think it's worthwhile for us to maybe.... I appreciate where Mr. Desjarlais is going with this amendment; he wants to actually cover multiple periods. I think the Auditor General has that kind of background information that she can look at: previous governments, previous administrations, and how they handled contracting work, which would inform her report and the recommendations—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I see that there are negotiations going on between parties. Maybe it's better for all of us that we suspend for a little while so we can get to understand what the parties are talking about. Obviously, there are no Liberals in those conversations over there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You're right on track. I was going to seek that once Mrs. Shanahan was done.

I'll come back to you, Mrs. Shanahan. If you would like to yield, I will suspend the meeting and come back to you.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I will yield so that we can have some good discussions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I will suspend the meeting, and parties can perhaps discuss a solution to where we're at.

This meeting is suspended for, say, eight minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am going to bring this meeting back to order, please.

I am going to return to Mrs. Shanahan.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I don't think I have anything.

I know there have been discussions among all parties, Chair. That's safe to say.

I will yield the floor back to you for you to guide us.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Khalid, you're on the speaking list. If you have anything to say, now is your chance, or I can turn it over to Mr. Desjarlais and we can come back to you, if you'd like.

Ms. Khalid, do you want the floor?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry. I was caught up in doing something else.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

You are next on the speaking list.

I'm going to go to Mr. Desjarlais.

I know that folks want to get out of here as soon as possible. I will probably have to add 15 minutes to our meeting on Thursday, because there is some other business I want to get to. I could hold you here today, but I sense there are a lot of people who want to get out, so prepare for that on Thursday, and I'll give you due notice.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank our colleagues from all three parties—Liberal, Conservative and Bloc Québécois—for making this what I believe to be a unanimous motion.

Mr. Chair, would you allow me to read the unanimous motion and seek your consent?

I've supplied that motion to the clerk. Is that sufficient, or do I have to read the whole thing?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Yes, I think you should probably read it.

We're looking for unanimous consent to wipe the slate clean with the previous motions and amendments and then adopt this in their place.

I'll go over to you so you can read it, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

The motion is as follows:

That, given the fact that,

GC Strategies, a two-person company, that does not perform any actual work but exclusively subcontracts contracts they acquire, has received $59 million in taxpayer dollars from 2017 to present;

decades of unchecked spending on outsourcing, which accelerated in 2006, has cost Canadians tens of billions of dollars while creating a shadow public service that works alongside the real public service, but without the same hiring practices or transparency requirements; and,

despite government promises to reduce outside contract spending the recently released supplementary estimates (C) show an increase in contract and services spending of $1.2 billion.

That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee initiate a two-meeting investigation after the Auditor General Report is tabled, concerning the value for money the Government has obtained through contracting GC Strategies—and through the practice of contracting and sub-contracting since 2006—and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

That the committee request that the Government provide the Public Accounts Committee all contracts between a government department, agency or Crown Corporations and GC Strategies, Dalian, and Coradix starting January 1 2012; and that the documents be submitted to the clerk of the committee in both official languages;

That the committee request that the Government Operation and Estimates Committee (OGGO) provide any overlapping documents already provided to OGGO

And that, the witness list for the study include the following:

(1) All GC Strategies employees (Kristian Firth and Darren Anthony)

(2) And any other witnesses that the committee deems fit to call.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That sounds like what I heard in our discussions.

I am looking for a unanimous consent motion to accept this motion so we may begin acting on it right away.

Is there any dissent?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'm sorry, Chair.

There is just one change that we would recommend, and it has to do with (f).

What was the (f) clause, Blake?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Which paragraph is that? Maybe you could say it by paragraph.

I don't think there is an (f) clause.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I would like to replace “any other witnesses that the committee deems fit to call” with “all senior government officials”.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Are you talking about the witness list portion?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes, it's the witness list portion.

It would be, “Any senior government officials deemed fit to call”.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Are you citing that to replace “any other witnesses”?

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Yes, it's to replace “any other witnesses” with that.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

The problem with that is that then we lose the right to maybe bring in Dalian or Coradix witnesses or witnesses outside of the government.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's “and all senior government officials that the committee deems fit to call.”

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Did you want to limit it to senior government officials only, though?

That's why I'm asking you, Mrs. Shanahan. Are you looking to have as witnesses only senior government officials? The original motion was quite prescriptive about whom to call. Mr. Desjarlais' was, and I agree with it, “Let's wait for the report and then from the report decide whom we're going to call.” I don't want to limit it just to government officials, in case something comes up outside of government officials.