Evidence of meeting #92 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was program.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:05 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Thank you.
I could try to answer it.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
They do it on a competitive basis. When we compete as opposed to having a sole-sourced contract, the competitive price is set by the market.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mr. Desjarlais, you time is up. I will allow an answer from Ms. Reza, but, Mr. Desjarlais, your time is up.
Go ahead.
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services
There's a markup that's set that includes their overhead, their costs and their profit for providing that service to the Government of Canada.
12:10 p.m.
NDP
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
We will come back to you, Mr. Desjarlais, in the next round. We turn now to Mr. McCauley.
You have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Thanks, Chair.
Witnesses, thanks for joining us.
Ms. Luelo, I'm disappointed to know that you are leaving such an important role.
Can you just quickly fill us in? You talked about modernization versus transformation. Could you just give some context regarding how that applies to the projects we're talking about today, the OAS, CPP and EI?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Absolutely, and it's been a pleasure to serve in this role for almost two and a half years. Thank you. It's been an honour.
In terms of modernization and transformation, those absolutely apply to the projects we're talking about here. From a BDM perspective, part of the strategic assessment we did was to have them focus on their highest-risk program, OAS. They had moved it to the front of the queue. We de-scoped a number of things from what was called the BDM project to focus them on retiring the technical data of OAS, knowing that these were some of our most vulnerable Canadians. We are now seeing execution against that and are expecting positive results as we roll through to the end of next year. That platform they built is now going to allow them to do transformative things with the program over time, but that whole delineation, I think, has allowed them to get very focused and to deliver good results on this program.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
You mentioned as well a standardization deficit. Could you elaborate a bit more on that and how that applies. I sense a fair amount of frustration from some of the things you've talked about. Perhaps it's why you're leaving the public service. Could you expand more on that and on what we should be doing but are not doing? What are some of the roadblocks that have been put up in front of yourself and the changes that you've been trying to make?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, I think that is the million-dollar question around standardization. The tech is always something we should be cautious about, but it doesn't scare me as much business standardization does. Certainly, that's been an issue I've dealt with in large organizations.
Phoenix is a very good example of where the final product was to be one pay system and one HR system. We have one pay system. We have 30-plus HR systems still doing things independently. We continually announce new benefits and programs that are providing really important benefits, but they're bespoken, and they are individually required to be developed in these old systems. From my perspective—
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Let me interrupt you there. I understand what you're saying, but how should the government address this, then? I understand when you talk about bespoken programs, but going forward, if you were the queen of the world, how would you fix that so that we aren't ending up in this mess?
12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I think there are a couple of things. The pay system gives us a good practical example of that: hold the government accountable; hold the public service accountable to getting to a common instance of HR and have leadership—
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
I think we'll have peace in the Middle East before the public service is accountable for a lot of these things.
Besides being accountable, how would we address this? What should the government be doing? Should somebody be saying, “Stop right there. What is your fix? How will we integrate this program into our pay systems, our reimbursement systems, before we move ahead?”
December 14th, 2023 / 12:10 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes, you've got it. There are two things. One is, I think, clear targets with consequences on standardization of pay, as an example. I would use that as a very specific example: By this date, get to one or two instances of HR.
I think the other one is that as government is defining new programs, they are wondering if they can do it in the system or if it is going to take them 18 months to code. I see examples of that every day.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
What should we be focusing on with this specific program? Are we on the right path with what you are talking about?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
If you're talking about benefits delivery modernization, there are a couple of things I'd focus on. With the model of having Cliff and John, two-in-a-box delivering, we should replicate that for pay, and we should replicate that for the immigration system. That style—
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Kelly McCauley Conservative Edmonton West, AB
Just quickly, have you provided any recommendations to anyone as part of your outgoing package that perhaps you could table with us?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I will be providing recommendations to both the minister and the clerk, and I am happy to provide a subset of that to the committee.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
I'm in Calgary today. This is where I am.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I have a question just so we can put it into our calendar. Is there a sense when we might receive that document, the recommendations you just referenced, that you would provide to us?
12:15 p.m.
Deputy Minister and Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Yes. I will be delivering that by the end of next week, so I have no difficulty providing it after that. What I will not provide is anything related to personal information on individuals, but I'm happy to provide the more general advice.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
That's super. Thank you very much. I didn't know if it was a few weeks or a few months, but that's very helpful.
I am turning now to Mr. Chen, who is joining us online. Thank you for that.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
