Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 28th, 2025

[Scott Jones]

The fact is that this has been a 10-year contract, so there is a tremendous amount of.... The way this works is that whatever questions are asked, we respond to. I think it's really important that we are more open with the Auditor General at the beginning of an audit, as the scoping of the audit terms and conditions is done, so that we can be clear about some of the challenges that are being faced and we can make sure we provide that information.

Our understanding of the scope, and the way we responded, was very much on the service side, not necessarily on the contract side. But that's a lesson learned. I'm not asking to put this at the feet of the Auditor General. We need to make sure that we're more proactive in addressing other pieces and perhaps raising a concern if we don't think we're going in a direction that we can definitely demonstrate.

I'm also not saying that it was perfect. I think, the way the contract was structured, it was not breaking down the details by individual departments and agencies so that CRA could have very detailed billing. However, that information was there, and that's a lesson we have definitely applied in the new contract.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Mr. Hayes, why do you believe this information, this documentation, wasn't submitted to your office? Isn't it an expectation, when an organization is audited, that they will be open? I believe the intent and purpose of the review by the Auditor General is to have access to all documentation and for those entities that are being audited to be completely open with the Auditor General.

Do you believe, Mr. Hayes, that the Canada Revenue Agency and Shared Services Canada have the proper resources to verify these contracts?

[Andrew Hayes]

In terms of the verification, we looked in both organizations for evidence of validation of the invoices. In particular, we were expecting to see, for example from Canada Revenue Agency, evidence of validating the usage, the number of agents using the system or the availability of telephone lines, both metrics that are contemplated. What is expected when public funds are being spent is a certification that the goods and services have been received according to the contract. We didn't find that evidence when we dealt with the Canada Revenue Agency.

I understand Mr. Jones' statements earlier that perhaps in the context of this audit one area of his organization was responding to the audit questions while another might have had information that was pertinent to the validation that's done on their part. I think what our finding is showing is that it's important for all of these organizations to be able to show exactly what Canadians are paying for. Hopefully, that's what we will be able to shed some more light on when we do our next audit.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Mr. Hayes, the Auditor General has found, through multiple reports now, that contracting and procurement are in a state of disarray and that the rules need only be followed by departments to clean up the mess. As a result of her CRA audit, as she announced at this very committee, she's now conducting a separate investigation on the telephony contract itself, as was brought up earlier in this meeting. The findings of that audit likely will not be known until mid- to late 2026. However, SSC has already selected a new vendor for telephone services to be implemented in 2027, as discussed earlier.

Mr. Jones, can Canadians trust that this new contract will be properly vetted and that work will be properly scrutinized even in advance of the AG's next report? As we've learned today.... Will you submit all of the documentation and be open with the Auditor General?

[Scott Jones]

The new contract is applying the lessons learned that I described before. I can repeat those, but I feel like I've probably said that enough today.

It is addressing the concerns around standard commercial terms and conditions. There's transparency now. We're using commercial pricing, with discount, not customized bills with customized prices. There's transparency on value for money at the outset, in the way the contract was structured from the beginning. That's something we are applying.

The second piece is, how will those be validated? CRA will now have the detailed billing information on what features it is turning on. CRA will be making those decisions. The contract has been structured so that it will be elastic both in terms of consumption, allowing CRA to tailor its usage, and in terms of turning on features or turning off features when they are not required. That is how the contract has been structured.

It was done competitively. It was done in the open market, asking the various bidders to come forward and be able to respond to these types of pieces.

On the response to the Auditor General, that is something we're looking at. This is not typical for us. I'm not going to say that it's not a relationship with tension sometimes, when the Auditor General comes in, but in general my organization has been very open in making sure that no matter what the questions are, the right people are at the table. What happened here is something we're looking at, because it is not acceptable to me. For me, it's about 100% co-operation with the OAG, regardless of what the findings are going to be.

We certainly have the documentation, because I've seen it. The Auditor General shared a pre-clearance draft. I was shocked by what was in it, because I knew the information was there. I asked my team at that time, but at that point it was too late. That is something we are absolutely going to fix, because it is not acceptable.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Yip, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Serjak, our hard-working constituency offices are also assisting our constituents with CRA questions. CRA offers a problem resolution service to assist our constituency offices.

Have the response time, resolution and ongoing support been improved to support our offices? They also feel frustrated.

[Melanie Serjak]

In fact, my colleague Maxime Guenette is responsible for that program. My understanding, though, in answering your question today, is that the standards from a service perspective are back where they need to be with regard to problem resolution. We know this has been a significant pain point. I believe that the standards are back.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Pagé, the government recently announced the automatic tax filing initiative. Will the phone centre be able to handle the additional queries on a timely basis, especially since this will serve a more vulnerable population, and many may not have access to computers or other digital devices?

[Hugo Pagé]

I'll ask my colleague, Melanie, to take this question.

[Melanie Serjak]

The initiative with regard to automatic tax filing is a significant one. As part of the planning, consultation and stakeholder engagement, there's going to be a very significant effort with regard to communications.

You are correct that the target population will benefit, without a doubt, from supportive communications. From a contact centre perspective, we are preparing and have included that in our planning with regard to the possible phone inquiries we may get as a result.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Brunner, I'm referring now to the management action plan. In response to a recommendation, it says, “To support the future technology needs.... This technical design will be overseen by SSC to ensure a harmonized end-to-end solution with other SSC services.”

What other services are involved?

[Kristin Brunner]

In support of the new contact centre as a service solution, there are 1-800 numbers. There are services from our telecommunications services provider that we rely on. There are also solutions that SSC delivers to the CRA to support accessibility features like TTY. We support that capability through an external technology called VOCALLS. Of course, there is the network and there are firewalls.

There are many services. Basically, the whole breadth and depth of SSC comes to bear, when we support and deliver contact centres for CRA.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

So, those are more specialized services that you're offering.

[Kristin Brunner]

Some of them, like the accessibility support and the TTY that I just mentioned, would be quite specialized, but others, like the network security and firewall-type services, are general services that we provide to all partners across the Government of Canada.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Serjak, the audit looked at 167 calls. How many calls does the CRA look at in terms of accuracy and assessment?

[Melanie Serjak]

On a yearly basis, it's just over 130,000 phone calls.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

That's a lot.

What's the accuracy rate for inquiries related to taxpayer files and small business?

[Melanie Serjak]

It's just over 90%. I believe it's as high as 94%.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

What is it for business?

[Melanie Serjak]

That's actually a global number that encompasses both our general inquiries line and our business inquiries line. With regard to the specifics, I would probably have to get back to you on the specific accuracy rates for both.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Training is really important. At these call centres, you're trained. You go through orientation, and it's quite extensive. Then, does it stop, especially with everything that's happened?

[Melanie Serjak]

No, absolutely not. It's a continuous process. There's continual refresher training. We have what we call “specialized centres of expertise” within the contact centres that have what I can describe as pods of experts to whom our call centre agents have access on a regular basis. Then they'll have specific topics, especially in light of different times of the calendar year. As we get ready for the benefits launch in July, as we get ready for the tax season, the individual tax season, the training begins in advance of those on specific topics that we see are trending already or with regard to potential new legislation that's coming down the pipeline that we want to ready our call centre agents for.

It is a continual process. It doesn't end as they graduate from their in-class and onboarding training. It continues from there.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is your time.

We will come back to your side shortly.

It is now over to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pagé, we know that the Auditor General's report highlights long wait times at the CRA. Pareto's law encourages us to think about how the agency can be more efficient.

I've had numerous discussions with a well-known tax expert in Rouyn‑Noranda, David Poulin, and he's been asking me the same question for years. Why is the threshold to register for and start charging the GST/HST still $30,000? Why hasn't it been indexed since the GST/HST was introduced in the 1990s? If the threshold were raised, would it reduce the processing burden associated with many small businesses? How would indexing the threshold affect human resources? Obviously, the fact that the threshold hasn't changed means that 80% of the workload of many tax experts in Quebec and Canada is a waste of time. If we look at suppliers in the $30,000 to $100,000 range, how many small files have gone to collections for fines and interest stemming from the GST/HST? I'm sure you would agree that these are people who need every dollar they have to keep their businesses running.

If you can't answer the question now, please get back to us with a written answer.