Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2025

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Has that contributed to Canada Post's changes in terms of analyzing how they're going to be structured in the future? How is that affecting the negotiations they had with their union, which was on strike?

[Maya Walker]

When we have requirements for consulting, we start by asking ourselves the question of whether that work can be done in-house or whether there is an enhancement that needs subject matter expertise that we don't have. In the case of the work that was done prior to where we are today, we looked at expertise around the markets, the new entrants in the market, and how we can find new ways of developing and creating revenue for Canada Post so that we do not have to depend on taxpayer money and be self-sustainable. That was the work done over that 12-year period, as observed by the Auditor General.

Today, when we have requirements for consulting, we use those guidelines that we have put in place to help us review the requirements we need and to develop the right sourcing strategy if the requirement is needed across any types of goods or services that we buy.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

At this point, you don't have any major results to say that you've changed X, Y, or Z to make some improvements so that you can stem these $10-million losses that you have?

[Maya Walker]

Canada Post has put forward its transformation plan to the government. That was done in the early part of November, resulting from the announcement of our minister, allowing us to do the recommendations put forward in the William Kaplan report. Again, we were very excited to see that announcement come out and to put some of those strategies in place to put that plan forward. We look forward to the refinement and the finalization of the plan with the government and the endorsement of it so we can start acting on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is your time, I'm afraid.

We go over to you, Mr. Osborne, for five minutes.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Part of the role of the Auditor General is to ensure that departments are doing things the way they should be and sometimes to suggest a better way of doing things. I think in the report for IRCC, we've seen some of that.

Mr. Kochhar, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the transformation office. Did that start as a result of the recommendations of the Auditor General's report, or was that something that was in process prior to that? Could you guide us through what the transformation office is doing? You indicated in your speaking remarks that it would create operational efficiencies. Will it create spending efficiencies as well?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

What I mentioned in my opening remarks was that, to look at gaining efficiencies, we asked McKinsey to look at a road map for our transformation, and that was the genesis of the chief transformation officer and chief transformation office. This was much earlier than the Auditor General's report on that.

What it did was look at how we can develop that strategy so that we can be more effective, efficient and client-centric in terms of the processing of visas. That was the main aspect of that. We have a diverse workforce in the 51 different countries who are also engaged in processing. We have a central processing here. The legacy system we are transforming right now was unable to cope with that kind of pressure that was coming in terms of the volume of the applications, and it needed an overall change in that. The transformation strategy and the chief transformation officer were focused on whether this was a system that we could try to correct or whether we should rebuild that system. That is one of the things we looked at. We are embarking on building a new platform, which is a digital platform.

The second part of that was to see how we can actually go towards online, because most of the paper filing of the applications took too much time in moving from one place to another. An example of the online digitization of that is the TR, the temporary residence. We have actually embarked on that. I gave the example of online passports earlier. These are all part of the transformation that has happened.

The transformation office itself has been in essence driving this change. My colleague here, Jason Choueiri, is the ADM responsible. More importantly, there is a part where we are constantly looking at what our pain points are and how we can invest in bringing digitization, innovation and transformation to have a client-centric approach.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Kochhar, the processing efficiency and the client experience are improving, and presumably will continue to improve over time. As we move more and more into the future, we will see more and more people relying on online application and usage. Will we see fiscal efficiencies as a result of this work?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

The translation of the fiscal efficiencies is also part of our assessment, which we call benefit realization. With benefit realization, as we move from paper-based to more digital, there are efficiencies in terms of fewer requirements for individuals to use other automated techniques. Yes, there is efficiency, which is fiscal efficiency realized during this process.

However, I have to mention, very clearly, that this efficiency is over a period of time. While we are building this new system, we have to continue with the legacy system, which has to still function in the back end. At the time we can shift onto that, we can then disengage the previous system, and that's when you will see the bigger efficiencies.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you. That is your time.

We'll now begin our third round, which will consist again of five members with various times.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Immigration is a sensitive topic and it needs to be handled with humanity. We have to avoid overstating or understating the numbers. The goal is not to have as many as possible or as few as possible. The goal is to reach reception capacity as a baseline. Reception capacity depends on employment, housing and public services, like health and education. Standardized measures pose challenges that I consider negative, and that's why more regional approaches are needed.

Mr. Kochhar, when the Liberal government announced a target of 500,000 immigrants, who made that decision? Was it the government or was it McKinsey who suggested that?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Every year, the department pulls together the immigration levels plan, which is a three-year plan, but in reality the first year is the one we actually implement. The other two forward years are for debate in the next session.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

Mr. Kochhar, I don't want to know about the process. I want to know who made the suggestion. Was it McKinsey or the government?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

It is always advice from the public service and from the department. This is based on a lot of consultation. This is not about McKinsey.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

For over five years, migrants used an irregular crossing that was originally an illegal crossing to enter the country. After crossing the border by this route, they became irregular migrants. I'm talking about Roxham Road, where 113,000 people arrived in our country following an unfortunate, clumsy tweet by the Prime Minister.

Was it McKinsey or the government that suggested keeping Roxham Road open?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

If I'm understanding the question, McKinsey had no role in guiding us, whether it was Roxham Road or anything related to that. Irregular migration was a challenge we faced along with CBSA, and we worked on it.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

In recent years, we've seen a steep increase in the number of cases involving foreigners applying for study permits in Canada, which unfortunately turned out to be more of a ruse to gain entry to Canada, as a number of journalistic reports have revealed.

Who decided to substantially increase immigrant student numbers? Was it the government, at the recommendation of the McKinsey firm?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Let me assure you again that McKinsey has no role in the policies that guide us to look at the immigration plan. The growth in the number of students has prompted us to now put a cap on the temporary residents, which includes the students and the temporary foreign workers.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

IRCC has a number of immigration programs. For example, there's temporary immigration, used to admit foreign students and temporary workers. There's also the so-called regular immigration. There are various other programs, too.

All in all, Mr. Kochhar, how many IRCC files are pending?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

We are looking at a vision of managed migration. However, we have three kinds of immigration happening. One is the permanent residency, which is under three categories: economic, family reunification and humanitarian. The second is temporary residence, which includes the visitors, the eTAs—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

We know all that. What I'm asking you specifically is how many files are pending as we speak.

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

Mr. Chair, I'll need some precision on the pending files—

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

The last figure we saw was one million backlogged files. As every member around this table and in the House of Commons can confirm, we receive dozens of calls every day or every week from citizens experiencing issues with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. Just this afternoon, I had a case reported in my riding.

How many cases are pending within the department as we speak? Can you give us a number, yes or no?

[Harpreet S. Kochhar]

I can undertake to be more precise so we can give you the figure. It fluctuates as more people apply. We don't have control over who applies, and that actually brings on the backlog.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

How is it possible that you don't know—