Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Accounts in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Have we lost control over debt service and interest?
When Quebeckers and Canadians pay the goods and services tax, it is no longer income that goes into the government's coffers. It is simply the equivalent of what we pay in interest on the debt, thanks to the management the Liberal government has done over the last 10 years.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I'll just give you a brief and straightforward answer: We still have a AAA credit rating at the federal level, and we're very mindful of carefully managing our fiscal framework.
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you.
The 2025 Public Accounts show that there was an increase in personnel expenses of $2.3 billion. So we have now reached $19.5 billion.
In budget 2024, you highlighted how important it was to strengthen the integrity of the public service. Meanwhile, personnel expenses have grown from $67 billion in 2023 to $76 billion in 2025.
How can we explain the fact that we are spending more and more on professional services, and more and more on personnel, but we are not seeing more services for Canadians and we are seeing more and more abuses in that area?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
Let me first demystify professional services. This is a question we are often asked in parliamentary committee.
Professional services cost $23 billion and include 14 occupational categories. One of the most important categories is engineering fees. A large part of that is paid by the Department of National Defence and by Fisheries and Oceans Canada.
A very large part is still dedicated to everything having to do with building refit. I am thinking in particular of the Terrasses de la Chaudière building, but also of the Parliament. All of that is paid to specialized staff in areas where the public service does not have the necessary workforce to provide the required services. In terms of professional services, I can also give the example of nurses who are sent to the north to provide health care, of course.
I think it is really important to understand the 14 categories and not always conflate the $23 billion with the personnel expenses that you have in the public accounts.
That said, personnel expenses will increase, obviously because of salary increases for the public service, but also because of everything to do with pensions and benefits related to health and dental care.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.
We will definitely come back to this.
Mr. Stevenson, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Thank you.
To start with, Ms. Boudreau, following up on what my colleague Mr. McCauley asked about, you talked about provisions being $54 billion. What he was getting at is that on page 42 in section 1, it says that as of March 31, 2025, the government's exposure is over $3 trillion, whereas from 2020 to 2024, it was $2 trillion. That's where he was going, so you can prepare for that. I don't need the answer to that question at this point. You can prepare it for him.
I'll start with the Auditor General.
In your opening comments, you talked about the budget approvals being delayed. Can you determine the reason and who was responsible for those delays, whether it was the government's finance...or departments? I'm trying to get down to who's responsible for the delays and whether you were able to determine that in your audit.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I'm sorry, but I think those remarks were made by the comptroller general and not the Auditor General, but you would have to ask Ms. Boudreau.
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
Okay, I thought that was your end, but go ahead, Ms. Boudreau.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you.
If you are referring to the public accounts of 2024, the tabling of those was done in December 2024. It was late for—
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I think I understand now. Are you talking about delays in the—
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
—approval of corporate plans for Crown corporations?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Okay. I was thinking about the federal budget. My apologies.
We highlighted the fact that a Crown corporation, which is really supposed to operate at arm's length from the government and have its own board of directors, is, however, required to prepare a corporate plan for the government to approve. Delays in those corporate plans can cause issues, especially if you want to change the way you operate or if you need to borrow. They are all submitted to a minister, and then the ministers have to get approval through cabinet.
We've been highlighting that for years. Many are not approved before the year-end starts, and there are some that still wait years to be approved.
The reasons for those delays would have to be explained by someone from the government.
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
You're probably not going to be able to answer the next question given that answer.
Extrapolating on that, do you think it's the resulting structure, or is it just that the people in the departments doing it are the problem? You've said in the past that they wouldn't necessarily have to change the rules if they followed the rules, so I'm wondering if it's about following the structure or about just doing it.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
That's a difficult question to answer, because it could be because of the structure. It could be the volume of corporate plans that come through and the timing at which they come through, but it could also be about the content of them.
If we use, for example, Canada Post, Canada Post's corporate plan hadn't been approved for many years, so they were operating under an older corporate plan. They were still running recurring losses and had liquidity issues, and the government was going back and forth with them on the options being presented in the corporate plan.
At times it will depend on the content, and at times it will depend on the system, so it's a hard question to answer.
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
You probably won't be able to answer the next part either, but I'll go down that road.
Did you see any evidence or plans showing that the budgets would be approved on a more timely basis in the future? Do you see anything they are doing to fix that problem?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
It's been a few years that we've been highlighting this, and over the last couple of years, it's remained about the same, with the delays and those approved, delayed or not done at all. That's why I say that the cycle they're in...or the reasons for the delays are something I can't—
Conservative
Conservative
William Stevenson Conservative Yellowhead, AB
All right.
Mr. Leswick, I don't have very much time, but you mentioned in your comments that they had fiscal anchors that were set.
You're probably not going to have enough time, but it seems to me those fiscal anchors have been moved a lot. Can you say whether they're going to remain, be addressed or stay in the same place going forward?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
The government has stated its two fiscal anchors are a downward deficit-to-GDP ratio and an operating balance within the context of its capital budgeting framework by 2028-29, so that's the focus. That's the mission.