Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 16th, 2025

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I have it from both sides, it seems.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Kuruc would like to go for a couple of minutes here as well. You have five minutes.

[Ned Kuruc, Conservative, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you. I'm glad to be here, and I am honoured to represent the taxpayer at this committee.

I'm going to go through some reports and touch on some things and then talk about the two that I think we should focus on the most.

First and foremost is “Report 3: Current and Future Use of Federal Office Space”. I found some interesting quotes in there. First, “the CMHC's reporting of the number of housing units built lacked clarity. In addition, the initiative did not maximize access to affordable housing for those with the greatest need.”

The Auditor General confirmed what Canadians already know: The government is failing on housing. Nearly half of the units promised through CMHC programs won't be ready on time. The so-called affordable housing doesn't even target the lowest-income families, who are struggling, and that is a big concern, so I would put forth that we look at Report 3 specifically.

The second one I'd like to touch on, and I'll go through them, is “Report 4: Professional Service Contracts with GCStrategies Inc.” Specifically, here the value for money did not meet the Auditor General's standards. Security requirements were not enforced. The study states that federal organizations were not able to show that all contract resources had the appropriate security clearance prior to the contract being given. “In 46% of contracts examined”—almost half—the study found that “federal organizations had little to no evidence to support that deliverables were received. Despite this, federal government officials consistently authorized payments.”

We have to look at Report 4, and we have to tackle three things: value for dollars, security issues and payment without proof of work being completed. I would like to put forth that we take a closer look at Report 4.

Those will be my two main suggestions.

Some other interesting things I found in the other reports include a report on the COVID-19 pandemic's CEBA, the Canada Emergency Business Account. First, we have $8.5 million remaining in loans to collect, and in this report, there is clearly no plan for how they are collecting on these defaulted loans, and collecting on loans could last until 2032. Over half of these ineligible loans have still not been paid off, and that's a very big concern to me and, I think, the Canadian taxpayer. As a result, now we have $3.5 billion in COVID-19 business loans that were given to ineligible recipients. That is very concerning. In this report, it's clear that the government likes to move fast with no control and no plan.

In “Report 7: Combatting Cybercrime”, I found that the CRTC received about 75,000 reports of cybercrime-linked incidents and only investigated six. This is extremely concerning, because the government is failing to protect Canadians.

Something that hits home to me is I have an 84-year-old father, and these exact crimes target seniors, and they could be the most affected. I found that very concerning.

Next is “Report 8: The Zero Emission Vehicle Infrastructure Program”. “A 2024 report by Dunsky Energy + Climate Advisors identified the need for approximately 240,000 public charging ports by 2030. The current ZEVIP target is to support 78,500 public and private chargers by 2029.” That's only 33% of what we would need to support the government's EV mandate.

I'd like to touch on “Report 2: Delivering Canada's Future Fighter Jet Capability”. This audit shows that we're more than three years behind on the infrastructure, and six years later we still have a shortage of pilots. Simply put, at the end of the day, we will have planes with no pilots and no runways.

In “Report 11—Programs To Assist Seniors”, StatsCan says that the population of seniors could almost double over the next two decades. The audit found that the government programs were out of touch on the wants and needs of seniors. They also couldn't determine if the programs were effective or show how many seniors benefited.

I will spend my time on this committee to represent the taxpayer. That's my job. To reiterate, I'd like to focus on reports 3 and 4.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Yip, it looks like you're preparing to take a round. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

It's great to see all the new members of this committee. I know that Ms. Kusie and Ms. Tesser Derksen attended the conference on public accounts. I think it's a great introduction, especially to what this committee is supposed to be about: non-partisan value for the taxpayer and really looking at the Auditor General's report to make a difference.

There are so many reports that we haven't seen from the Auditor General, not just the ones that are listed here. I want to make a point of saying that I wish we could have reviewed more of those reports in the past. However, it would be good if, in the spirit of what was stressed at the public accounts conference—being non-partisan and collaborative—every party could choose one report. Then it would be fair: three reports for the three parties here. I think we would be able to cover a number of interests.

I also note—and I know, Mr. Chair, you will know what I'm saying—that we have a number of draft reports, dating from 2022, that also need to be incorporated.

Mr. Lemire, I'm sure that we can have a chance to discuss your motion a little more, maybe off-line.

I would like to look at some of the reports from the environment commissioner. There are four reports here, and I think all of them would be good to look at. In particular, “Lessons Learned from Canada's Record on Sustainable Development”, which is number four from the commissioner, looks at three decades to foster sustainable development. I think that, given where we are going with the environment, my concern for future generations, like my children.... In thinking about the wildfires, I was in Edmonton last week, and I was surprised at how hazy it was, and even in Toronto we've had days when it's been hazy, so I think it's important to see what lessons have been learned and to apply them to the future.

I would recommend that one, as well as “Current and Future Use of Federal Office Space”, which is report number three from the Auditor General, because housing is, of course, a big concern.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Yip.

Mr. Stevenson, go ahead.

[William Stevenson, Conservative, Yellowhead, AB]

Thank you. I'll be pretty brief.

I too made the trip to Regina, and it was very informative as to some of the procedures in other jurisdictions and how, hopefully, we can co-operate. It sounds like we're starting to have a bit of consensus already with a couple of them, including the report on the housing. That would be one of the issues we'd look at.

Another one I would want to support would be the professional services contracts.

The third one for me, one that has a little more priority, is the CEBA loans my colleague Mr. Kuruc mentioned. As somebody who was in public practice during the process, I did find there were a lot of issues with how it proceeded. I'd be interested to see how the follow-up was determined. I think there are a lot of issues we need to look at with regard to how the loans will be collected, but also, for those people whose loans were forgiven, whether or not it was actually reported as income and tying it back to CRA. It wasn't just the program itself and giving the money; it was also in taxing the portions that were forgiven in the first and second phases. That would be interesting to see. I didn't read any details on any of that.

The other part, which kind of ties into it, is the modernization of implementation. Mr. Deltell discussed how the modernizing of CRA was making it difficult and was becoming somewhat ageist or discriminatory toward those who are technically challenged in dealing with CRA.

Those are the reports I've looked at that would be of interest to me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stevenson.

Mr. Osborne, would you like to share your thoughts with us, please?

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm certainly looking forward to working with all of you around the table. It does seem like we're building some consensus. I'm quite excited for consensus at public accounts. I was on the agenda for Regina and I missed it. As we all know around this table, the most certainty we have in our positions as members of Parliament is the uncertainty of our schedule sometimes, and something came up. I would like to have gotten there as a new member of public accounts at the federal level.

I'd say that we are reaching some level of consensus. From my perspective, looking at Canada's record on sustainable development is important. I do agree that if we can have one report from each of the parties represented here, and perhaps within our own caucuses reach a consensus on what that report is, I would see that as being fair and equal in terms of the consensus we are trying to build.

MP Lemire, I'm determined to learn French so that I can speak to you in your language as well as you listening to me in English. I am taking French lessons. I will get there. Maybe I will get some lessons on the side from you to help get me there.

In terms of your motion, I think we can work together and find some sort of solution in bringing your motion forward. I look forward to discussions with you on that as well.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Are there any other comments anyone would like to make?

I'm sensing some broad agreements. I'm not going to attempt to repeat it now, in case I get it wrong, but a few of us are taking notes. We'll report back to you on that.

I have just a couple of other housekeeping points. Then I'll move us in camera, because we have some departmental requests that we need to consider as well as requests for some committee time.

The Auditor General would like to come and brief us at some point in the coming weeks on her office's role. This is a good oversight for new members, and there are many here. That happens in camera.

I'm just looking for a signal. I'm seeing yeses. I know that the OAG team is watching this, and they'll see that as an acceptance. We'll find some time.

Unless there are any other points, I'll suspend the meeting. We'll come back in camera and we'll pick things up.

Mr. Lemire, do you have anything to add?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes. While the meeting is still public, I would like to say that I support what Mr. Deltell on the Conservative side said about the timeliness of the services provided to people, particularly seniors. In my riding, I too have seen people having problems at the Canada Revenue Agency. I even travelled around talking to seniors, and we wrote a report about it. This is a real problem. I think it would be particularly interesting to take a look at it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

[Proceedings continue in camera ]