Public Accounts Committee on April 22nd, 2026

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you for staying longer.

Ms. Hogan, I believe Mr. Osborne touched on his province. In the report, it says, “The reduction in new study permits disproportionately affected smaller provinces.” Why is that?

[Karen Hogan]

I think there was a compounding effect there. The first allocation model assumed an approval rate of all applications received at about 60% when each province had a very different pattern. As was already mentioned by the deputy minister, that got adjusted as they fixed the allocation model. I think the drop in actual applications, and then the application of an approval rate that was not an accurate one for the province, had a bit of a compounding effect on the province. That's why in April of 2024, I believe, there was a top-up done, but that top-up still hasn't compensated for the disproportionate impact.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Gallivan or Ms. Graham, do you want to comment further on that?

[Alexis Graham]

Thank you for the question.

It is clear that the change and the transition with caps and the new requirements did have an effect. As part of the action plan, you will see that we do plan on undertaking multiple touchpoints with provinces and territories in support of maximizing the utilization of those allocations. We have a series of meetings that will be taking place in terms of sharing data and understanding the reason behind refusals so that those behaviours can change and recruitment patterns can change as well, hopefully transitioning to a more ample use of those allocations. Then we'll have a tracking, of course, throughout that to see if we are actually achieving that objective. We'll course correct as necessary with them as essential partners in this particular objective.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

As well, approximately 40% of cases were not closed “because students did not respond to requests for more information.”

How can you compel students to respond in order to close the cases?

[Ted Gallivan]

It's interesting, because at committee just Monday, there was a bit of a conversation in a sidebar between CBSA's president and me on this very question. To show that we're focused and prioritization is important, we were talking about an indicator in the border system. If that student who is not talking to us travels out of the country and then back into the country, there should be an indicator to CBSA that says, “We're looking for Ted.”

I think it's really about designing a compliance framework around that. For IRCC, there has been a lot of focus on the front end. There's been a lot of focus on helping refugees and helping facilitate, but we need that same energy to be applied to the back end. An example of how to find a student is to put an indicator in the border system. If that person ever crosses the border back and forth, then we're able to force a conversation.

That's just one example of how we need to think through a compliance framework that puts some teeth into the process.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Yes. I did wonder. I often find it hard to track my own kids.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

How else is CBSA collaborating with IRCC?

[Aaron McCrorie]

In this particular instance, we're deeply implicated in MRAP, the management response action plan. We will be working with our colleagues at IRCC in fulfilling the commitments in that action plan. I would say we work together on a daily basis. As I alluded to earlier, I think of it as a continuum of activities when somebody comes into the country. When somebody gets a visa, it starts with IRCC, but then they send some of the visa applicants to us for security screening. Then we send the recommendation back. When somebody arrives, we do the processing at the border. They're doing the integrity checks for the student program in-country. Not all our systems are automated. None of our things are perfectly aligned from a communication point of view, but I think the staff and the people are constantly working together on a daily basis.

Going back to the question of our security screening program, for example, we have an ADM committee that governs that program. All three agencies are involved. We collaborate every day on these issues.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

This is not the time to work in silos.

I had a question about the student direct stream and how IRCC was slower to respond to the integrity concerns. What is being done to rectify that in regard to the student direct stream?

[Ted Gallivan]

If we go back to our earlier testimony, that program was discontinued, so that is positive going forward. However, we are left with the legacy of a cohort that was subject to less rigour than we would normally apply. To go back to the risk of fraud and what we are worried about, in some cases, the risk was asylum claims. They might have claimed asylum already, but the new risk is working through that population as they seek new visas or seek renewals to make sure extra rigour is applied, because it was not applied in the first instance, and then managing it as a population around something like the departure date. When your visa expires, you really ought to leave the country, so we will lead with education and compassion. Then turn up the heat to make sure people follow the rules.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Time is up.

I will now turn the floor over to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask a question about documents that I would like to obtain in writing. I'll be brief. Then I'll reintroduce the motion that you've already seen.

Mr. Gallivan, you talked about a new computer program launching in May to track permit expiration, essentially.

Can you tell us the program's objectives, the estimated cost and the actual cost so far?

I would also like to see the total estimate, current expenditures and, if possible, the expenditures broken down by phase for the digital platform modernization.

Can you send that information in writing to the committee? I'm very interested in government IT contracts. I would also like to understand the mechanism for awarding these contracts.

I see you nodding your head. Thank you for agreeing to this request. For parliamentary publications, please say “yes” into the microphone.

[Ted Gallivan]

Yes, I'm sorry.

If I understand correctly, there are two parts to the question.

I really appreciate the fact that it will be provided in writing. That will make it easier to understand. I will undertake to provide that information as soon as we receive it.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, I'm moving another motion related to IT contracts. There was a debate in the House on this. During that debate, Mr. Lamoureux, the parliamentary secretary, brought up the fact that parliamentary committees were the right place to shed light on government programs and reports, so I take that at face value.

The motion you received reads as follows:

That, in light of the government's response and the additional information provided in Report 1: The Benefits Delivery Modernization Programme, published by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, and the payment delays for 60,000 seniors, the committee undertake a follow-up study. That the committee request the Department of Employment and Families, the Department of Government Transformation, Public Works and Procurement, the Privy Council, and the Prime Minister's Office to provide the clerk of the committee, within 30 days of the adoption of this motion, with all reports, correspondence, emails, and documents relating to the management of the Modernization of Benefit Payments since January 1, 2017; That the departments and the Prime Minister's Office responsible for producing the documents apply redactions, in accordance with the legal obligations set out in the Privacy Act and the Access to Information Act. That the committee hold the first meeting on this study one week after receiving the documents; and That senior officials from Employment and Social Development Canada, Public Services and Procurement Canada, Shared Services Canada and the Treasury Board, that Cliff Groen, former Associate Deputy Minister and Business Lead, Benefits Delivery Modernization, and John Ostrander, former Technical Lead, Benefits Delivery Modernization, be summoned.

I think amendments will be proposed, Mr. Chair, but that's the motion as moved.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think you're right.

This is going to be very quick, because we are running up against the clock. I am going to suspend for two minutes. I am going to take the temperature of the room very quickly, and then we will come back to Mr. Lemire and we can see what amendments we have.

It will be just a two-minute suspension, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll bring us back into order very quickly.

I'm going to thank our witnesses for their testimony and participation in relation to the report “International Student Program Reforms” of the 2026 spring reports of the Auditor General of Canada. Thank you for coming in. I'll excuse you now.

I'm going to suspend again for five minutes and come right back.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I bring this meeting back to order.

I'm going to take things relatively slowly. I know there will be some amendments here. I'm looking for a speaker, I suspect from the government side, to propose some amendments, because I'm sure the government does not want this to collapse into a vote right away. Could I see someone's hand to speak to the Bloc motion?

Jean, why don't you hold the floor until your amendments come? I know there's a lot here, and I called you back unexpectedly.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Mr. Chair, I wouldn't mind having another 60 seconds with Mr. Lemire to see whether we can resolve this before we put amendments through.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As in privately, off-line...?

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

All right.

Is 60 seconds okay, Mr. Lemire?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll suspend for another minute.