Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 5th, 2026

[Daniel Gobeil, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

There were nevertheless many concerns about costs. We know that, for a project of this scale involving software, including some dating back more than 60 years, the task was difficult.

Perhaps my question is for other witnesses. Are any governance or oversight mechanisms in place specifically to ensure compliance with the schedule for deliverables and adherence to budgets? We're talking about a project that reportedly costs around $6.6 billion. Have any measures been added to your procedures?

[Cliff Groen]

Yes, absolutely. A project of this magnitude, which will cost billions of dollars, absolutely must have strong governance and multi-faceted and complex oversight. To that end, we're working closely with the secretary of the Treasury Board of Canada, with Public Services and Procurement Canada and with the Office of the Auditor General. The Office of the Auditor General has already audited the program, and we're working with that office. We also have a team of internal auditors working on this project to ensure good governance and timely delivery of the project within the budget.

[Daniel Gobeil, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Good.

Ms. Lobb, we've been discussing cost oversight. In your role, when you carry out monitoring, what steps are taken to alert managers and the government about costs? What might happen with a project of this nature, which could exceed its budget and incur new expenses?

[Jody Lobb]

The oversight that we do over projects is not specifically around costs. We are looking at the key indicators of the ability to achieve business outcomes.

It's been touched upon by my colleagues, but I'll reiterate that BDM, benefits delivery modernization, is a massive program of change, so it's not simply one project. Multiple projects have been happening in tandem since 2017, and I think that right now it's scheduled for full completion in 2031.

Within that space, we definitely are watching the cost management reported by the project, as well as the program governance and schedule management. We're also looking more specifically at how they're managing risks and issues through the system, how their governance is working and the attention that they're paying. These are the indicators we're looking at overall, I would say.

[Daniel Gobeil, Liberal, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Blanchette‑Joncas, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Mr. Chair, I'll take the floor on behalf of my colleague for the second round of questions.

Mr. Groen, the government finally admitted for the first time that the Cúram software has had a negative impact on seniors. As of June, more than 40,000 seniors were still facing delays resulting from the Cúram system. These figures come from the responses to our Order Paper questions. The number of seniors still dealing with Cúram‑related issues is now reportedly 33,000.

How many cases still require manual intervention to ensure proper payment?

[Cliff Groen]

The old age security program is quite complex. Perhaps people who don't really understand old age security might think it's fairly simple, that if someone is 65, it's easy enough, and the benefits can just be sent out. In fact, it's actually very complex because eligibility for the program depends on the number of years a person has lived in Canada. In addition, we have more than 50 international agreements with other countries that can affect eligibility for this program.

It would be great if we could automate the entire process of delivering these benefits, but that's not possible because the benefits are quite complex. As a result, many of the factors we use to determine eligibility for benefits currently require manual intervention, and they always will. This isn't a Cúram issue; it's the reality of this benefit.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

We have also heard that the public curator of Quebec, who safeguards the interests of incapacitated individuals, has highlighted the problems people face in obtaining benefits. However, neither the government nor you have ever admitted that there are problems with the system. How do you explain that?

Why did you emphasize that the program had only minor problems? Incapacitated seniors who didn't receive the money they were owed—I don't call that a minor problem, and I don't call it a success story. What is your response? Why did you downplay the impact?

[Cliff Groen]

I think it's very important not to think that we don't take the late payment of benefits very seriously. In this committee, we have never said that it wasn't important. One senior who has to wait too long is one senior too many. It's absolutely important.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

How many seniors fall under the jurisdiction of the public curator?

[Cliff Groen]

I don't have that number, but we can get it. However, as far as I'm concerned, it's absolutely essential to make sure that everyone can receive the benefit as soon as possible.

[Andréanne Larouche, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

We would like to have those figures broken down by province and in Quebec under the public curator to see how many seniors are affected across Canada.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Falk, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses here today.

Mr. Groen, I'd like to begin with you.

I thought I understood that, in your opening comments, you said your service standard level was 95%, but about five minutes ago I heard 90%. To clarify, is it 90% or 95%?

[Cliff Groen]

For the payment accuracy rate, which I referenced in my opening remarks, the standard is 95%, but for payment of benefits, to pay an individual within their first month of entitlement, that is 90%.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Where do those standards targets come from?

[Cliff Groen]

Government of Canada service standards are developed in a number of different ways. For old age security, the 90% service standard.... I've been involved in the program in some way, more or less, over the last 20 years, and for at least 20 years the 90% service standard has been in place.

Service standards, generally, as dictated by Treasury Board Secretariat policy, are based on an analysis of the ability to meet the service standard and what the service expectations of Canadians are, as well.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

A lot of fast food restaurants have 100% targets. What would be wrong with a 100% target?

[Cliff Groen]

I think the challenge is it would be a target we could never achieve. The delivery of benefits—

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's not the point. The point is to have a target of 100%. I don't think fast food restaurants expect 100% either, but that's their target.

[Cliff Groen]

Our objective is to pay every single Canadian within their first month of entitlement for OAS or within 28 days for EI. That is absolutely what our objective is.

However, I think it is important to understand what a service standard is. The service standard, as dictated by Treasury Board policy, not only needs to reflect the needs of Canadians but also needs to, as per the policy and based on consultation that Treasury Board conducted when it developed the policy, be achievable. When you are setting forward a service standard, it is really important that clients have an understanding of what type of service they can expect. That is also why the service standard is different from our objective.

Would we like to pay every single Canadian on time within their first month of entitlement? For sure, that is what we would like to be able to achieve.

[Ted Falk, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I have another question on OAS.

I heard from one of my constituents that they received a T4 at the end of last year, but they didn't recall ever receiving any payments. Would that have been possible?

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I have one of those too.

[Cliff Groen]

The generation of a T4 is based on someone's having received a payment. The data that we use to populate a T4 comes from the system that makes payments. If there is some situation where a client—and this does happen at times as well—may have a misunderstanding of some type of payment, because a lot of Canadians receive different payments from different levels of government, they might not know.

If anyone has any questions about their T4 or about whether it's accurate, we would want them to contact us, and we would be happy to be able to clarify something. However, it would not be possible for a T4 to be issued if a payment had not been issued, because those two systems are interconnected.