Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2025

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Housefather, you have the floor for three to four minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thanks very much.

Mr. Mills, would I be correct to say that the space that the federal government occupies is still about 50% leased space and 50% owned space?

[Michael Mills]

In the last few years, as part of the reductions, we have moved out of a number of leases, so I think it's slightly more within our owned space. It's around 50%, but the percentage owned is slightly higher versus leased.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

In terms of the planned reductions, what percentage of the planned 50% reductions—let's say we're at the 50% reductions—is going to be the disposition of owned space versus getting out of leases?

[Michael Mills]

It will be fairly close. At the end, we will be close to fifty-fifty, but we may be more 53% owned and 47% leased. We are moving in sequence with those.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

What is the duration right now of federal leases? Is it usually five years? Is it 10 years? What are the general terms, and what do the termination clauses look like?

[Michael Mills]

I'll turn it to Nathalie.

[Nathalie Bertrand]

They vary in terms of length, but the average length is 42 months for leased spaces.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

What about termination clauses?

[Nathalie Bertrand]

We have introduced termination clauses in new spaces that we're leasing and lease renewals, but they were not traditionally included in our lease agreements.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm pleased with that, because when I was at PSPC, I'd strongly encourage termination clauses. I'm glad to know that this is now a standard form.

When we're entering into new leases, are we using our own template or are we using the landlord's template?

[Michael Mills]

I would say predominantly that we are using our own template, but it is something that we are increasingly looking at across both the real property space as well as the contracting space. Can we get additional savings if we go to a market-based lease? It's that question of managing risk and what kinds of savings we might get by using a standardized lease; I think we're much more open to determine how we can use that.

The caveat I would put is that some of the things that are in the market leases with respect to clauses related to greening or clauses related to reporting may be different. I think it would be very difficult for us to get to 100% standard to market lease, but I think we can use the majority of the form by adding in some of these requirements that are unique to our reporting requirements and what parliamentarians would like to know.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I think this will help the committee to some extent in in our review. Would you be able, Mr. Mills, to provide the template lease that we offer landlords to the committee? I can't imagine that there would be any confidentiality about this lease.

[Michael Mills]

I'd be happy to provide the template with unpopulated data like names and pricing.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Yes.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Seeing no further questions, I will see the clock at one o'clock and adjourn this meeting.

I want to thank all of our witnesses who came in from the Department of Public Works and Government Services, the Treasury Board Secretariat and, of course, the Office of the Auditor General. Thank you very much.

This meeting is adjourned. We will reconvene here on Tuesday for the study on the F-35s.