Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'd like to call this meeting to order.

We have a quorum. This is meeting number 11, and the item for our business this morning is to discuss the future business of the committee. Without further ado, we'll go into it.

There's not an agenda, but I have suggested items. We could follow up the report on the commission of inquiry into the events relating to Maher Arar. I will ask you how you wish to proceed with that. We also need to look at how this committee wants to proceed with Bill C-12.

Mr. Holland has suggested a study concerning the arming of border guards. Mr. Cotler has a motion, but he's not here this morning. We also have a request from a Tanzanian delegation of parliamentarians who would like to meet with us on Thursday. We can discuss how to proceed with that. Mr. Rosen also has proposed a conference, and Mr. Ménard has proposed a trip to Quebec.

Those are some of the possible items we can deal with, and unless any of you have further suggestions, we can begin at the top.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, what about estimates?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

The estimates have to be done by November—I can't remember the date—yes, November 10. I can add that to the list: to deal with the estimates.

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Can I address the list in terms of scheduling?

I think we need to give priority to the estimates, given the time schedule we have and the week we're going to be off. I think this is the first item we should schedule. It may not be the first item we do, but we should schedule it and give ourselves at least a couple of sessions to address them and to bring forth witnesses.

In that regard, as I'm sure is close to your heart, Mr. Chair, I was concerned about the budget cuts that occurred—of $6 million—in the gun registry. I would want a witness—from the RCMP now—as well as the minister, to explain what those are. That's one witness I would like to have. I assume we're going to have the minister in any event, but I would like specifically somebody from the RCMP who can explain in detail where that $6 million saving is coming from.

I can jump. want to draw the committee's attention to a newspaper article. This is on the O'Connor report and the testimony we had from Commissioner Zaccardelli on Thursday. The former minister of public safety, Wayne Easter, is quoted extensively in the Toronto Star on the weekend, refuting some of the testimony we had from Commissioner Zaccardelli with respect to what information was given to the minister and the cabinet in that period of time, in fact saying that what Commissioner Zaccardelli said with regard to that is not true, that “we were not informed”.

As I think the committee already knows, I am strongly in favour of this committee taking on some additional responsibilities with respect to reviewing the O'Connor report. As part of any hearings we have in that regard, I would want Mr. Easter brought forward as a witness and Commissioner Zaccardelli brought back to respond, both of them at the same session, so that we can get to the bottom of this.

Regarding the O'Connor report more generally, I think we're confronted, Mr. Chair, with the reality that most of what we need to do with respect to responding to it is really with what's coming in the second report, which is due somewhere around the end of November or the first week of December. I think in planning our scheduling we have to take that into account, and I would want to commence hearings on the recommendations that are coming out of the second report, as well as any we may need to address out of the first, some time in early December.

Those are the comments I would make on the schedule on those two points. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I saw much the same as Mr. Comartin about the former solicitor general. I had already put down here that I thought we should call him and former minister of public safety Anne McLellan. She may very well have something to add to that story. I think we should have someone here from CSIS and someone here from the Department of Foreign Affairs. There obviously were some differences between those agencies, and it would be interesting for the committee to find out some background on who knew what, and when they knew it. I think it's only appropriate that the committee get that information.

After we have those folks, we may very well want to expand. I don't think we should limit it to those few names that we've brought forward right now. There may be some additional information, as a result of that investigative hearing before the committee, such that we want to go somewhere else.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are there any further comments rspecting what you think we should proceed with in that regard?

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just with respect to our continuing review of the Arar affair, it's probably not a bad idea also to have the deputy minister come in to talk about how the department is responding in this instance and what their reaction would be. So my suggestion would be that we have the deputy minister in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Just as a question in that regard, why would you have the deputy minister rather than the minister here?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm happy to have the minister again. We only had the minister for an hour, so I think it would be a good idea. Again, it depends on timing. There are two elements. One is to have the deputy minister to talk about the departmental response and perhaps be able to answer some of those issues.

Maybe we can have them both at the same time. I know we asked for an extension, but we only ended up with 40 minutes to question the minister. I don't think the minister got the opportunity, and I don't think the committee members got the occasion, to really ask the questions they felt they needed to ask on this in terms of going forward with some of the specifics. I heard from a lot of committee members, certainly on our side, who felt they didn't have a great enough opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are there any other comments?

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just on the issue of the deputy minister, the ones we would actually want to hear from are the deputy ministers in that period of time, not necessarily the current deputy minister. I believe the current incumbents in the positions that would be relevant are all new. I think there were some changes during that three-year period. They are the ones we want to hear from on this point, as to what information was passed through, because in a number of cases it may have gone to the deputy minister and been held up there rather than getting up to the minister. We need to follow that chain.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Alghabra.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't think it's a bad thing to also look back into the past. Judge O'Connor has done an extensive report, but if the committee wishes to do this, that's fine. The other issue we should not neglect is how the government or the department is going to react to those recommendations and what we are going to do to move forward. If the committee wishes to bring previous ministers, that may be fine, but we should not neglect the role of the committee in working with the government on how to move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Logically, I think Mr. Comartin addressed that somewhat. We should wait for the second part of Mr. O'Connor's recommendations and then we could possibly deal with it.

It seems to me we have three main items here that we'll have to prioritize: continued investigation of the Arar affair, Bill C-12, and the estimates. It seems we have those three priorities.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We haven't had a chance to discuss, Mr. Chairman, the issue of studying the arming of the border guards. I know there is some time, because this is a ten-year plan, but nonetheless I think we should take advantage of it and at least discuss it. I put it on the table. In your listings of priorities, I wanted to make sure it wasn't missed here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, I did list that, but it seems to me that within the next month we want to make sure that we cover these three items, and if we have time, by all means, no problem.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

No, I guess what I'm saying is that I appreciate that there are a lot, and a lot that are very important that are on our plate immediately. My suggestion is not to interfere with that or usurp it in any way but simply to request that the matter be put on the list to be dealt with after we deal with some of these more immediate, more pressing needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right. Where do we go from here? What do you suggest?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I have a question, Mr. Chair. I don't know where Bill C-12 is at, at this point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It has been referred to the committee. So as a piece of legislation, I think that's....

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think we should deal with the estimates first and get that out of the way, and then we can get into what I consider the meatier things.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Sure. There's a suggestion.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I would agree with that, wanting it to be the first meeting next week, and have the Tanzanian delegation on Thursday.

In regard to that, Mr. Chair, are you anticipating that the delegation would take a full two hours, or just an hour?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'll ask the clerk here in a minute, but my understanding is that they just want to observe how this committee works, and then after we've done our work, they might want to just talk with us for half an hour. They don't have a set agenda that they want to discuss with us.

Maybe I'll ask the clerk to comment on that.