Public Safety Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I certainly am sensitive to that. I don't think we would want to duplicate the work that's there.

There are some unanswered questions; Justice O'Connor pointed at those. I think the committee has to be very focused in its deliberations to ensure that we're not duplicating, that we're zeroing in on unanswered questions, and that we're doing our best to get to the bottom of it. One of those is how these leaks occurred, why they occurred, and where they're involved.

Mr. Chair, you had suggested—and I think it's a prudent course of action—to focus specifically on that item in the past tense. There's been a suggested list of deputations in this regard, and I concur with that.

Then going forward, we would review Justice O'Connor's second report, and start looking at how we could follow up and make sure those recommendations would be carried forward, if we agree with them—I'm presuming we will—but if we agree with those future recommendations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

Let me suggest that we agree on some kind of witness list here in regard to the commission of inquiry into the Maher Arar case. Is it okay if we proceed in that way now and draw up a list of witnesses we would like to hear before the committee? Then we can let the clerk deal with it and schedule them in as they're able to come.

Do we have agreement on proceeding that way? Okay.

Who is on the list of witnesses? I've heard the—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Can I make a suggestion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just as a potential suggestion—we've had a lot of discussion here, and the clerk may want to offer some additional thoughts or ideas—I don't know when our next steering committee meeting is, Mr. Chair, but if we have general consensus with some of the names that have been brought up, we could give a little bit of time for people, in case they think of other names that are relevant or pertinent, and send this to the steering committee.

Are we meeting tomorrow?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

This meeting was to be instead of the steering committee meeting.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Oh, is It in place of it? Okay, I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We do not have to meet as a steering committee if the entire committee is able to decide, because the steering committee decides and then brings it to this committee anyway. We're just short-circuiting the process.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay. I wasn't aware that we weren't going to have a steering committee meeting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, this is in lieu of a steering committee meeting.

Let's try to agree on a witness list.

I think I've heard from both sides here that Mr. Easter is someone we would call. Is there agreement on that?

Now, also we would have someone from CSIS. Who from CSIS would you like to come? The current director was not the director at the time, so who do we wish to invite here? Who was the former director?

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

For the crucial period of time, I think it was Mr. Elcock, so I think it would be Ward Elcock, Mr. Chair. He was the director for almost all that period of time—Mr. Judd came in about eighteen months ago, I think it would have been—so for most of the crucial period of time around what information was gathered and flowing, he would have been the director.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So you're suggesting Mr. Elcock would be the one to ask.

Mr. Rosen has told me that Mr. Hooper was the deputy director of operations at that time. Maybe we would like to ask him to come as well.

So it's Mr. Elcock and Mr. Hooper from CSIS.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just on the matter of CSIS, we haven't had a comment really of any substance from the director of CSIS yet at this point as to how they're going to deal with it. I understand we have to have a forward-looking element to it. If we're calling witnesses for it, I don't have any problem with the ones who have been suggested, but is it prudent to try to get CSIS in to get a statement from them on what has occurred to this point? There hasn't been anything largely that's been made public.

Members of the committee may feel it's sufficient to have the current director of operations. I'm just suggesting that we haven't really heard from CSIS on this matter, and we did have the commissioner of the RCMP in, so it would make sense to me that we also have the director of CSIS in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right.

Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Mr. Chair, I don't disagree, but would it not be more appropriate to have the current director after we get the second report from O'Connor? That will give us more to work on in terms of what's coming down the road.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I would agree except for the fact that we haven't heard from CSIS really to this point at all—and that's been an issue—either with respect to the issues in the past or the issues going forward. We had Commissioner Zaccardelli come and speak to us and offer an apology. We haven't had anything similar from the director of CSIS. Given that there hasn't been anything we've really heard from CSIS, or if we accept in the near term this looking back, then I suggest it would be prudent to have the director of CSIS here earlier rather than later.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

“Looking back”, to me, is the folks who were there at the time. Looking forward, after we get all of O'Connor's recommendations—

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

It's also finding out what happened and how they're going to help and assist in finding out what occurred.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Except that the current director of CSIS wasn't there.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

No. But they have to help today to find out what happened then; isn't that correct?

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Which is why I think after the second report we'd have a bigger package of recommendations for them to go forward with.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes. I'll leave it at that. I think it's important that he be called for this process, looking back. There's still the going forward and how they improve things going forward, but there are still potentially the answers in the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

How about if we ask the current director to come and bring with him the past director and the deputy director? Is that a reasonable compromise in this situation?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes, that makes sense.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. So we have Mr. Easter, and then we have CSIS coming.

Who else would you like? One of the suggestions made here was Anne McLellan, invite her to come. I'm not sure....