Public Safety Committee on Oct. 26th, 2006

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

And do you see the bill giving you that protection?

[Francis Bradley]

Yes, we do.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Maybe just from a practical view, do you see in terms of your interaction, not so much around the bill but in terms of your interaction with the government, any steps they're taking to ensure that information about the industry is not exposed to being shared under the Patriot Act in the United States? Have you had any assurances from the federal government that they'll make sure that doesn't happen?

[Francis Bradley]

We haven't had that specific discussion. The other side of the coin is that there is certainly going to be information we share with government authorities that will have to be shared with our partners in the States, and that we hope they currently are sharing.

So our concern at this stage is not so much a worry about inappropriate information being shared. We're sort of on the other side of it right now, hoping that there is a good flow and a good sharing of information. And as I say, the type of information at least that we see and the type of information that we've been discussing with, and likely in the future will be sharing with, the government so far isn't information that we'd be concerned about in terms of the applicability of the Patriot Act.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

This question is to I'm not sure whom, maybe to all of you.

We've had a number of incidents, security breaches, over the last seven to ten years, some pre-9/11 and some post-9/11: Mr. Ouimet, in the incident in northern Quebec where the media just walked onto one of your sites; or Mr. Davis, up at Kincardine--I'm sorry, I forget the name of the nuclear plant up in that area--where a couple of people wandered onto the nuclear site; and I think we've had one or two incidents--Mr. Holland might know this better--of the same thing. It appears, at least, that in none of them was there any intention to cause any harm. It was more just people being curious. But it's obviously disturbing, in any event, that access is still available.

I have two questions. One, have there been any recent incidents? You don't have to tell me specifically, just whether there have been any in the last two or three years. And two, does the bill do anything to assist you as an industry overall in tightening up your security?

If you want to start, Mr. Davis, that's fine.

[Jim Davis]

First of all, I'd like to be very clear that the plant in the Kincardine area is not an OPG facility, so I can't comment to that particular incident--not that I would anyway. Because this is a public forum, I have to be very cautious of what I do say in relation to any security matters. However, I can tell you that our security staff, and our operational staff as well, are very diligent in the areas of security and safety.

We have been getting more and more reports of unusual activity, unusual incidents. What I mean by that is things that would not have been seen five to ten years ago. It may be someone who is taking pictures because he or she is a tourist, but he or she will be reported, because all these things could be little bits and pieces of something bigger.

What I can tell you is that we have not had any breaches that cause us any concern. We are paying a lot more attention in the area of security, as I said, both with our security personnel and our own operational staff. Because our reporting is much better, our statistical base is higher than it has been in the past.

That said, I do not believe there is any greater risk now than there has been in the past five years--at least the intelligence people are telling me that there is no direct threat to our facilities at the current time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. I'm sorry--

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

He didn't answer the second part of the question. He may not want to comment, but the second part of the question was, do you see the legislation enhancing your ability to provide security?

[Jim Davis]

I believe it definitely enhances our ability to work much more closely with the intelligence people and the federal government agencies. We currently have a very good working relationship with Natural Resources Canada, as a matter of fact, but we also have to be very cautious about what information we release currently.

When the bill is passed, I believe we will be in a position where we could share more information, and I think it would be better for everyone in the country.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We'll now go over to the government side for seven minutes. Mr. Norlock, I believe you're the first questioner.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

To carry on with the first series of questions that Mr. Comartin had with regard to the incidents in each of the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, with regard to perhaps easier access to facilities than you would rather there be, would I be correct, Mr. Davis, in saying that--I think I know some of the answers--Ontario Hydro has its own security, in other words people who regularly patrol, etc.? Would that be a reasonable assumption for the average person to make?

[Jim Davis]

We have security personnel in various locations across the province. And I also mentioned operational staff. For our operational staff, we have a security awareness program in our company, as well as a very strong safety program in our company. So we have tried to make our staff more aware of the security possibilities that may occur. So where in fact we don't have physical security guards, we do have personnel who pay attention to that. I'd also like to say that we certainly have other security methods that don't have to relate directly to personnel.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Would I be also correct in saying that the local police, or at least at a certain level, are kept abreast, or you frequently have meetings with them, to ensure that there is an integrated response should there be a threat, etc.?

[Jim Davis]

The answer to that is a definite yes, but not just for Ontario Power Generation. I'm sure Chris Price would concur with that, and Jean-Guy. As a matter of fact, at our CEA meetings with security personnel from across the country, that is a usual event across the country, not just in Ontario or Quebec.

[Chris Price, Director, Corporate Security, Hydro One Networks, Canadian Electricity Association]

Just to add to that, there's also quite a regular liaison with the police through Criminal Intelligence Service Ontario, where they're made aware of issues that may be affecting Hydro One specifically, that being the transmitter. So there is regular contact, both provincially and with the local police departments.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

The lead-up to my next question would be that if we wanted to ensure that power installations, everything from dams.... Just up the Ottawa Valley here we know of an incident that occurred, and I don't expect you to comment on it because I believe it's still before the courts. But one of the concerns raised by Mr. Comartin is--what I think he was getting to--what have you done to prevent the ability of people to freely enter some of the sensitive areas? I'm going to ask you if your companies have contemplated hiring guards. Do you think security personnel would be the appropriate terminology? And what kind of powers do you think those persons should have to ensure a more secure site?

[Francis Bradley]

I'm sure some of the other members would be able to respond in some specific instances, but I don't think they'll get into too much detail, of course.

I think generally for our members across the country the short answer to the question would be yes, we have that, and we continue on an ongoing basis to constantly review it. Every time there's an incident, whether it's in an individual company's service territory, a neighbouring utility, or somewhere else, every time there's another event we learn from it. The industry generally learns from it. So there's a process of constantly seeking to improve the security, not just physical but also on the IT security side. So that's a constant and evolving process.

However, I'm not sure anybody would want to tell anybody in a public forum precisely what specific actions have been taken. But I can assure you that every company is constantly learning from every experience.

A couple of incidents were mentioned by Mr. Comartin, and I'm certain all of our members have made adjustments by learning from that. We do take very much a lessons learned approach to every incident that happens here in Canada and in the United States, both within our industry and in some of the other sectors as well.

Do the members want to discuss some of their individual circumstances?

[Jean-Guy Ouimet]

There have been events in Quebec that have concerned us. However, you also have to think that, when you travel along a road, not all the equipment you see plays an equal role in the operation of a network and that the security investment made takes the critical level of a facility into account. We must ensure that we properly protect the right thing.

As Mr. Davis said a moment ago, there are no security guards who can ensure the protection of facilities. There's also a whole range of electronic means that are put in place, ensuring that we keep an eye on things and that there are agreements with the police departments to intervene when required.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

The next question I'd like to ask is specific to what I think is the emerging ability, for people who want to, to cause problems with our electricity distribution and even maintenance—the ability, or perhaps the lack of ability. I know you can't go into specifics, but I think, because this is a public forum and because we need to get the proper information out there, we want to find out whether there are weaknesses, but we also want to have a general sense of comfort. I think it's a responsibility of each and every legislator to say there may be some needs and challenges and needs for improvement, but there needs to be a comfort level.

My specific question would be this: do you communicate on a frequent basis with the leading edge of studying the capacity to crack into the information systems—the computers, etc.—that run not only our nuclear installations but the very distribution of our electric network? Do you go out and hire the people who are the leading edge on the ability to infiltrate those types of systems?

[Francis Bradley]

Yes, absolutely. There are a number of avenues to access that sort of information. The electric utilities in this country spend a significant amount of effort on the IT security side to do precisely that, both through the association itself, where they use it as an opportunity for information sharing, and also through a wide variety of other methods. They're seeking to access precisely that: what the leading edge is—and in some cases, as they say, the “bleeding edge”—of intrusion technology and hacking technology, and so on. There is a very significant focus on that from the utility companies, and as a result it continues to be a significant focus for our working group as well.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are there any further comments from any of our witnesses?

That completes the first round of questioning. We only have a couple of people who have indicated they would like to ask further questions.

Monsieur Carrier.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good afternoon. Welcome to our committee.

In your opinion, is the bill we're considering designed to establish general standards for the country as a whole? Even though each province has its own emergency preparedness act, these standards would make it possible to standardize them across the country, mainly for the federal institutions. In your opinion, could these standards apply, for example, in certain regions of the country that would need them?

We know for a fact that Quebec has the Civil Protection Act. It was well established by my colleague who is seated beside me and who was minister at that time. However, I don't know the situation in the other provinces and territories.

Do you see the validity of this act? Do you think it's an example of uniformity for establishing standards across the country?

[Francis Bradley]

I haven't looked at the legislation in that light and I'm not certain if there is indeed a requirement to have some kind of standardization across the country. There certainly are differing circumstances. We don't have a uniformity in terms of the plans of the utility companies themselves, because of the differing circumstances. We all operate with the same general guidelines, but I don't think we'd be able to comment in terms of what's required from different provinces. I think it might be more of a question for members of the legislature and experts on constitutionality.