Public Safety Committee on Nov. 1st, 2006

Evidence of meeting #18 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was csis.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Study of the report of the Commission of Inquiry on the events relating to Maher Arar

Main Estimates 2006-2007: Vote 25 under PRIVY COUNCIL

SIRC Annual Report 2005-2006

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gary Filmon Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Roy Romanow Member, Security Intelligence Review Committee

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Apparently you found that there was no record of CSIS approval for the RCMP to disclose CSIS information about Mr. Arar to a third party.

Under section 19 of the CSIS Act, it prohibits CSIS—I think it's in your report on page 33—from releasing information without written documentation. It states: “When such information is released, the Director of CSIS must submit a report to SIRC.”

In the past, it looks like you said that you did not receive anything in writing. It's clear that the act said that it must do so in writing. They didn't do it in writing, so obviously something must have gone wrong—this is the “Disclosures of Information” section on page 33 of your report.

If you refer back to the paragraph before, on page 32, if a CSIS employee has acted in a way that is not necessarily appropriate, the director of CSIS must submit a report to the minister, etc.—this is under section 20 of the act—and then in turn the minister must send the report with his or her comments to the Attorney General of Canada and to SIRC. There was no such report filed.

It seems to me—and I don't know whether you agree—that there was no written record of a disclosure of information.

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Sorry, may I just ask, in what circumstance was there no written report?

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Apparently you did not find any record of CSIS approval for the RCMP to disclose CSIS information.

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Right, that's true.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

CSIS is supposed to approve.

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

No.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

Is there no protocol?

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

They weren't asked; that's the point we're making.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

What would be the proper procedure for sharing information? Was the proper procedure followed?

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

The proper procedure would be that if information, which had been garnered by CSIS, was shared with a number of different agencies, domestic or international, in order for them to share that information with a third party, they would have to seek CSIS approval. We're saying that did not happen.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

So that was not followed. But what is the proper protocol for the release of CSIS information? They're supposed to.

November 1st, 2006 / 5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

That's for somebody else releasing CSIS's information. That's what the protocol we're talking about is. And we're saying that protocol wasn't followed, not by CSIS, but by—

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

The RCMP.

But the problem is that CSIS didn't.... Wouldn't CSIS have to release that information also?

5:15 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Yes, but they have a memorandum of understanding for the free exchange of information. They followed the memorandum and passed the information on. Then approval wasn't sought for that to be passed on to a third party.

5:20 p.m.

Member, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Roy Romanow

With a caveat.

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Right.

5:20 p.m.

Member, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Roy Romanow

My word, you have to have that caveat. There's a caveat attached. If they share that information with CSIS, you cannot use it, they say—CSIS can't—unless it's a....

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

But to a third party.

Shouldn't CSIS also be consulted before they approve?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

They should, but it didn't happen.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

I see.

Would you be reviewing all CSIS decisions to receive information from countries that have questionable human rights records from now on?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Yes. In fact that was one of the outcomes of our study with respect to agencies from countries with questionable human rights records. I might say as well that the RCMP-CSIS memorandum of understanding was tightened up and expanded to cover some of the concerns in September.

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

In your recommendations—I see the whole list of recommendations in here—which one do you think would really address some of the concerns that have been raised in particular?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

Which page?

5:20 p.m.

NDP

Olivia Chow NDP Trinity—Spadina, ON

On page 73, you have a whole list of recommendations that are in front of us right now. Which one of them would give us some comfort that some of the mistakes, which occurred in the past, won't reoccur if these recommendations are followed?

5:20 p.m.

Chair, Security Intelligence Review Committee

Gary Filmon

At the top of page 74, “CSIS amend its policy governing the disclosure of information to foreign agencies, to include consideration of the human rights record of the country and possible abuses”.