Public Safety Committee on Jan. 30th, 2007

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

So when you met with him, you didn't have any interest in pursuing what contradictions or misconceptions he might want to clarify.

[William Elliott]

I did not--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

And the minister did not have an interest in that either.

[William Elliott]

Neither of us asked the commissioner about the contents of the letter or the specifics of his appearance.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

So what I'm trying to understand...because this committee saw further contradictions as his testimony went along. In fact members of the public were shocked, I think, as we went along and had contradiction after contradiction. Witness after witness, the testimony simply didn't add up.

We kept pointing it out on the opposition side. In fact when the commissioner then made a statement on the Monday before he appeared at the committee, on the Tuesday in early December, the anger had reached a crescendo, with people being really upset at all of these contradictions.

What you're telling me is that there was not any real interest to question these contradictions, as they were going along, or to make any kind of effort, in a written form or any other way, to understand them.

But moreover, at the very least, was there anybody, as a national security adviser, who counselled Minister Day or the Prime Minister, to say, guys, slow down; don't give 100% support, and stop saying that you support the RCMP commissioner 100%, unconditionally, unqualified...as they said even on the Monday, even after the commissioner had said these things?

So with all of these questions that had been raised, all of these contradictions--you yourself, Mr. Elliott, were surprised by his testimony on the 28th--did you not at least counsel the Prime Minister to slow down, to not give unconditional support?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Mr. Holland, I can make a general comment that I would never recommend to any government to give only half-hearted support to the Commissioner of the RCMP.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Would you not recommend—

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I think the Commissioner of the RCMP either has the confidence of the government or he doesn't. This commissioner decided, as I believe he said on December 6, that it was in the best interests of the RCMP and the people of Canada that he resign, and he did so.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

But would it not have been appropriate to say that there is a committee studying the issue, we look forward to their recommendations so that we can better understand what's going on, and we reserve judgment until we're able to hear the committee testimony?

I mean, when he said he had 100% support despite all these questions and contradictions, didn't that cause problems?

As another question, I'm trying to understand how, as a national security adviser, you had said that you didn't.... We're talking about an individual Canadian citizen who was deported to Syria and tortured for a year. We had the RCMP Commissioner in front of us giving testimony about this. But you said--and I do understand, as you said, that of course you weren't in the country—that you'd never read the transcripts of that conversation, which is surprising to me.

Further, you said earlier that it wasn't really important to you, or you didn't have an opinion, as to what version of what the RCMP Commissioner said was true.

So was the Prime Minister not asking you about these things? Did he not have concern about these contradictions, about which version of the truth was going on, about what happened in the testimony? Were these things that you weren't counselling him on, or were these things that he didn't really care about asking about?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I believed it was very appropriate for the Commissioner of the RCMP to come back to this committee. If he had testimony that was unclear--and it clearly was--the appropriate place to come and clarify it was here. I think it would have been inappropriate for me to try to talk to him about what he should or shouldn't say to this committee.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

You said the testimony was unclear. At what point did you know the testimony was unclear and that you had questions?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Well, I certainly knew from the media, after his appearance.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

You would disagree, then, with the Prime Minister and the minister who said that it was all news to them and it was a shock on December 5. You're saying that you knew back at that point in time.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Are you referring me to a particular statement of the Prime Minister? Could I see it, if you'd like me to answer a question about that?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Yes; he said in question period on the Monday that followed the speech that was given by Commissioner Zaccardelli that this was a shock, that this was all brand new news to them, and Minister Day repeated the same thing. What you have just said is that you knew there were questions and that the testimony was unclear going back into the early part of November. I'm asking when, specifically, you knew you had questions about that testimony and when you knew the testimony was unclear.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That'll have to be your final question, Mr. Holland.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I guess I don't understand the distinction you're making between what I said and what was purported to have been said by the Prime Minister.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Just so I could get an answer to the question, my question very specifically asked when you knew. Forget the rest for a second. I'll deal with that. When did you know specifically that the testimony was unclear, that it was questionable, and that there were questions on it? At what point did you know?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I knew there were questions raised in the media about its being unclear shortly after; I don't know what day, but shortly after.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Brown, do you have some questions?

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank our witnesses for coming today.

I'd like to shift gears a little, because it's clear that Mr. Holland is not finding the smoking gun he's looking for.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I think I have, actually.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

I'm keenly interested in what went on back in 2002 and 2003. I know, Ms. Bloodworth, you were working with Minister McLellan at the time, but I'm keenly interested in this PCO briefing in November of 2003. That was where there was faulty information. Mr. Arar had come back from Syria and there were ongoing briefings, but once again there was faulty information well after faulty information was sent to the Americans. Were you aware of that, and the content of that, at the time?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I wasn't, because I didn't go to Public Safety until a month later, but it's not my understanding that Mr. O'Connor called that faulty information. I think he said he felt some material information had been omitted. I don't think he made any finding as to whether it was deliberate or not.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Did you meet with the commissioner at that time?