Evidence of meeting #29 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand.
Either Mr. Juneau-Katsuya or one of the other witnesses can answer my next question.
You evaluated the risks that customs officers can encounter and you came up with some figures that indicate a very high level of risk.
Did you examine some of the incidents that occurred in the past to ascertain if in fact your predictions for the future were justified?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Northgate Group
Thank you for that excellent question.
We did indeed focus considerably on this problem area. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to find any data, but as we discovered over time, the Agency did not have the proper tools for collecting data.
However, as I noted in my opening remarks, we interviewed 383 people, all of whom related to us incidents in which they had been involved. They reported physical assaults -- some had been hospitalized -- serious verbal abuse and altercations leading to blows and various types of injuries. A customs officer working alone even died under mysterious circumstances. His lifeless body was discovered the following day.
A number of officers told us that we would have a difficult time collecting data because first of all, the agency does not collect this type of data and secondly, that they have no desire to become statistics. They also informed us of the existence of a policy whereby they must back off when in the presence of a violent criminal. Since they have a family , they want to go home at night. So then, they back off and let the police take over.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In your testimony, you mentioned an edited copy of the ModuSpec inquiry. Have you read this unedited version?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Northgate Group
We have indeed obtained a copy of this document.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Northgate Group
I don't have one with me, but I can send a copy to the committee.
National President, Customs Excise Union Douanes Accise
If it can help you in some way, Mr. Ménard, the unaltered pages and the final report are reproduced in the Senate committee report. The two versions are appended to the Senate committee report released last year.
I'd be happy to send it to you.
Bloc
Jean-Pierre Fortin First National Vice-President, Customs Excise Union Douanes Accise
If you have no objections, Mr. Ménard, I'd like to comment on one of your questions concerning past incidents within our organization that have led us to call for border guards to be armed.
Historically, Revenue Canada was responsible for customs. Obviously, many of our officers never enjoyed being looked upon as tax collectors, In the past role, our main role was to collect taxes.
As my colleague mentioned, the passage of Bill C-18 by the Liberal government in 1998 brought about a change in culture and some recognition for the agency for which we now work.
I simply wanted to point that up. I won't take up any more of your time.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Brown, you mentioned courses that officers could take and the results achieved. I know that police academies conduct situation simulation exercises, generally using actors. Do the particular courses you spoke of include these kind of exercises?
Firearms Editor, Blue Line Magazine
The Canadian frearms safety course is a basic introductory-level safety course. It has nothing to do with law enforcement per se. So the training would be on how to handle a firearm safely, and it would be the same training given to any Canadian who wanted to acquire a firearm in Canada.
This was considered, at the time, to be a minimum level of training, so that customs officers would not be putting themselves or anyone else in any harm with seized firearms. They reported many situations in which they'd seized firearms that were found subsequently to be loaded, and unfortunately, without that level of training at the time, no one could unload the firearm safely. They simply didn't know how to handle it.
In fact, I was told about a situation in which someone had seized a firearm from an American trucker. It was loaded, and the only person who could unload the firearm was the trucker, who had been arrested and whose firearm had been seized. That was the only person who had the ability to unload the firearm.
So it was that basic level of safety training that they conducted in 1999. What you're describing would be a much higher level of training, and this would be in conjunction with the actual issuing of the firearms, which will be done in the future.
Conservative
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I want to welcome our witnesses here today. I'm glad that we're finally getting to see the side of the people who put their lives on the line to protect us at the borders, who are also there working hard for us every day.
To Moran, last year Prime Minister Harper and Minister Day announced that this arming of border guards was going to go ahead. There was a great deal of push-back from the official opposition. I know that one of our former committee members, Mr. Holland, was quite public in that criticism. I believe at some point you and your union contacted him to discuss that. Can you maybe tell us a little bit about his response to that? Because I know he was quite public in his opposition.
I'm very concerned about the fact that the official opposition is taking the approach that your members are out there just looking to get a raise, and that all of these reports don't mean anything in terms of their safety. I find it, quite frankly, insulting to your members.
National President, Customs Excise Union Douanes Accise
It's insulting to our members and insulting to individuals such as Michel, because his credibility and objectivity are in question; I guess he's just doing this to assist us in getting a raise.
But beyond that, I guess what you're referring to is that when the comments about the cost were made...and don't get us wrong; we've mentioned that we have a lot of concern here. We also question where the numbers are drawn from. We are trying to...and I hope you will have more success than we did. I certainly invite you to try to get a breakdown and try to get a sense of how the numbers that are being suggested as costs are arrived at.
It went from $1 billion to $780 million, so I guess it's going in the right direction. But if you take that figure and you divide it by the 4,800 officers who are to be armed, you'll come up with a figure of $167,000 per officer. It's just mind-boggling how you get into that range.
When the $1-billion figure was thrown out initially, we contacted Mr. Holland's office. The response we got back was that Mr. Holland was not in opposition to arming, Mr. Holland was very concerned with the cost. So it was certainly refreshing for us to receive that type of information from the office of the then Liberal critic, and we're certainly prepared to share that piece of communication with anybody who wants to see it.
I guess that was your question...?
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
Fair enough.
I have a great deal of concern--and I asked Mr. Jolicoeur about this last week--about the fact that, in my view, CBSA was deliberately dragging its feet. I think that might have been what we were hearing from him...or not from him, but I believe that's what I was seeing.
So I asked Mr. Jolicoeur specifically whether he had ever said that he would quit if this were to go ahead. He refused to answer.
However, do you believe--
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, this came up at the last session, where we're sort of impugning the reputations of civil servants who have worked very responsibly for this country. To deal with innuendo or whatever it is...and to put it to this witness I don't think is appropriate.
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
I haven't finished asking my question.
To Mr. Moran, do you believe CBSA is dragging its feet on this issue?
National President, Customs Excise Union Douanes Accise
When you are so entrenched in a position, as has been the case with the senior bureaucracy and with the people who were in government at the time, it's hard to believe there is a genuine shift in commitment. And when the same people now get mandated to actually implement this type of initiative...which, we're the first to recognize, is probably a fundamental one--if not the most fundamental one--in terms of the culture within the organization, if nothing else, in terms of the recognition that there is a focus on law enforcement that is being recognized.
It was recognized, as we pointed out, in 1998 when we began enforcing the Criminal Code. It was further enforced when customs and immigration services were carved right out of the homes where they had been, and were placed in their own agencies alongside the RCMP, CSIS, and the Correctional Service. So certainly the importance of focusing on law enforcement and public security was clear from government decisions.
I'm sorry for taking such a long circle to answer your question. But it makes it very difficult to accept that people who had such firm convictions...which I respect, and I hope people respect what I believe as well. To task the same group of people to now implement it....
I say this, and I say this to the senior managers as well: they have not taken the turn that would lead them to recognize that they are at the head of a law enforcement organization. This is the fundamental problem with a lot of what we're confronted with.
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
Okay.
I know we don't have a whole lot of time, and I have a whole lot of questions. But I want to get a bit into ModuSpec, because I don't believe we're going to be able to hear from them to discuss the allegedly altered report.
To Mr. Juneau-Katsuya, could you tell us a bit about a comparison between the ModuSpec report and the Northgate report? I'm also interested in knowing whether you got any cooperation from CBSA in your attempt to carry out your report.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Northgate Group
The length of the studies were quite different, one to the other. The report from ModuSpec was mandated by the government, by CBSA at that time, and they received full cooperation. By contrast, despite the invitation from the union directly to Ms. McLellan and to Mr. Jolicoeur to embark on this initiative, they refused to get on board. They issued an e-mail to all officers across Canada that said they would be charged if they were to speak with Northgate. They would be charged under section 107 of the Customs Act. They sent also a memo to all managers stating that they should not allow Northgate to go on-site.
We performed our interviews off-site, and interestingly, despite that, 383 people presented themselves within the timeframe we had. We also tried to sort of limit the period of time, for cost purposes, where we were, because we had to travel across Canada. We were able to visit 40 sites ourselves, and in many instances we were guided by the local management, which insisted on explaining to us what was going on.
In terms of the differences--
Conservative
