Evidence of meeting #36 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was goods.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Before we go to Monsieur Ménard, are there legitimate manufacturers involved in some of this?
Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
My experience is that the legitimate manufacturers also, as they've gone offshore.... They come from the paradigm of the factories they're used to dealing with, and they produce from this factory. When you get over into places like China and developing countries, often they farm out work, because they can't meet the capacity issues. There's a lack of intellectual property enforcement in those countries as well. So, yes, they run into problems like that.
If you talk to the car companies, the aviation industry, or pharmaceuticals, within their distribution network they're always checking and re-checking the system. Once you get through a little onto the factory or push this in from these global sourcing areas, it's very hard even for them to discern it. It's impregnated into the system.
So, yes, it's legitimate manufacturers, it's legitimate retailers, it's the distribution network they use for illicit drugs and things of that nature in organized crime. It has permeated so much. That's why the numbers are so large and it's so pervasive.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand the issue that you have raised but you are probably aware that, at the next election, the most important request from Canadians will be that their taxes be reduced. However, you are now asking us to spend more.
I agree that we should spend more. I believe that seizure of the proceeds of crime, as it is done in drug cases, could be some sort of compensation. However, governments are so organized that the money would go to Finance and the Treasury Board and not necessarily to the department having the responsibility to deal it with counterfeiting.
Furthermore, in this kind of activity, the profits from intellectual work can vary considerably. You represent people who probably did a lot of work to obtain a patent and who are therefore entitled to the benefits flowing from that but you also represent other people who earn fortunes, literally, from the patents they obtain.
Do you not believe that responsibility should be shared? I agree that the implementation of the Aact is the responsibility of the government, like legal action and the seizure of goods. However, I also believe that industry should share an important part of the costs of awareness campaigns because it is in its interest to change people's attitudes.
I would like to know how you are organized. Why do you not start huge advertising campaigns to explain that purchasing counterfeit goods is a crime and that counterfeiting is stealing? Similar campaigns have been launched to tell people that drinking and driving is a crime and they have produced results.
What are you ready to do to change attitudes? How much money are you ready to invest? Are you so organized that the cost of such campaigns could be shared between the people in industry who earn enormous profits with their patents?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Who would like to take that?
Mr. Geralde, and then Mr. Isaac.
Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
First off, I agree, and I'm as compassionate when I'm talking to the public as I am when I'm talking to you, as I am to manufacturers and rights holders. So I agree that everybody has a contribution.
We are trying to educate, as Mr. Lipkus says. CACN is a consortium of all interested parties, everything from legal firms to manufacturers to testing agencies. Individually, I think they are trying to educate within the system, with retailers, to the public, and we've gone into that area. I think legitimate industries have also done that. It's not cohesive, but everybody is trying to educate.
There is a problem with individual companies trying to educate, because the tendency for the public is that if they say there's a problem with a Gucci bag, then people just stay away from Gucci bags totally. It might be a bad example, but it could be that this power bar is a problem and they'll just stay away from the whole manufacturer. So most of the effective education comes when you are associations and you talk about them in general areas.
But there is a lot of activity that CACN has done in educating law enforcement and doing public safety. We've worked with government and at CSA to educate on counterfeiting. A majority of the time I'm spending now in the day-to-day work in the investigations has to do with education and training, at all parts, and everybody needs it. Although you think you've been doing it effectively, every time you bump into people they're not aware that it's an issue.
So I agree with you totally. Everybody has to be part of it. Actually, a lot of people are. We're not linked together properly in a cohesive manner, just as we're not linked together cohesively in our efforts and bringing all these things together. So it's certainly an area that needs it.
Partner, Smart & Biggar Fetherstonhaugh, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
Speaking of examples, we talked about France already, which put on a big campaign, and that was government-funded. But I actually had a chance to speak to one of the people who had been instrumental in it, and they never really asked the rights holders—
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I am sorry, I will cut you off because we do not have too much time. France also has the reputation of having the highest taxes.
Partner, Smart & Biggar Fetherstonhaugh, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
Fair enough.
Mexico is another example. Mexico came out with some commercials that they put into their movie theatres, etc., and that was a joint effort between industry and government. One of the recommendations that CACN has in the road map and that Graham was talking about is that you need to coordinate. If we have a central coordination, the rights holders should be part of that. If you try to coordinate some central education, you're going to get a lot more done than if you have individual companies doing what they're doing in their small markets.
Conservative
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
We are obviously not doing enough to to educate Canadians, even though you say that you are doing some education work.
Would you be able to do more? How much money would that cost, generally speaking? Are you willing to do more since we are obviously not being effective at this time?
People do not always think they are committing a crime when they purchase counterfeit goods.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
We can make people aware that it is dangerous to purchase counterfeit goods.
Chair, Education and Training Committee, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
Just briefly, I've been involved in training and educating for 12 years. This is the 12th year I've been doing conferences, primarily for law enforcement, customs, and other people, but I can tell you that as recently as the four-day conference in Toronto last December, there was a large media push, and it was put together by the companies. They paid the money to put together an event. This was something that was topical across Canada. There were over 20 radio stations that carried the story with interviews. It was in most major newspapers in Canada and it was on most national television coverage, and that was put together through funding from the people you're talking about.
So that regularly happens. That's just the most recent example, but that is happening, and happening more and more. And there are ads taken out. The big problem is that if one company comes forth and says, “Here's a product I make that's counterfeit, be careful”, no one is going to buy that product. So it has to be something, as they said, that's centralized and coordinated through the government.
Chair, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
I was just going to say that CSA, because of public safety and part of the issues we do...we're advertising, and we've made counterfeiting one of the thrusts. Key components are that counterfeit can kill and no one's immune. So that's part of the campaign we're working on. We believe that to be the case, and that's the message we're trying to get out. So I think individually we're doing it.
I would have no idea how much we spend. I think everybody is trying to work towards that. I know when we do it, we try to provide the expertise, the people, and the background to do that and provide expertise on training. So that's part of the issue as well.
Conservative
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, I'll try to refrain from getting into condescending and sanctimonious arguments across the table, except to say this. I think we owe it to the people we serve and we owe it to these gentlemen to keep the politics between ourselves in the House. Let's work on this committee to try to get a report that addresses the very subject matter that you're here today to speak about.
At the last meeting we had on this subject a couple of days ago, I admitted that I was a new parliamentarian and was quite open to hearing from the various government departments on the challenges they have in meeting the need to do something about what I see as a public safety problem that endangers the lives and the well-being of Canadians. It is our responsibility here to listen to you, to take your suggestions, and to try to formulate a report that will get the job done.
That having been said, I would just like a comment from you as to what you think the stages should be, in a reasonable amount of time, perhaps starting with Mr. Webster. If you think this committee would benefit by perhaps a visit to one of these markets just to get a hands-on training session, and perhaps Mr. Lipkus could assist us in that....
Chair, Intellectual Property Committee, Canadian Chamber of Commerce
Thank you.
The first thing I'd like to say is that this is a worldwide issue. Since I've been involved with it, I can tell you in the past two to three years it's been focused on significantly by other countries. A good example of that is the recent conference in Geneva. Last year 300 people were there; this year it was 1,200. It's a big issue everywhere, and we have to address that.
I'm hearing, at least in my view, a little bit of an overemphasis on government support for this. This is not solely an initiative that government has to spend a lot of money on. The individual rights holders are also asking for the tools they can use to efficiently and effectively stop this practice. In our recommendations we've suggested many things that can give the rights holder the ability to go out and effectively stop this practice.
It's not government funding; it's really a team thing that has to be done. Civil rights holders have to work together with the government on this. This is not just getting government money and throwing it against huge ad campaigns; ad campaigns are part of it. We have to work together to make the system work more efficiently and effectively. Although public safety is a very important part, it's not just that. It's the whole innovation and information economy. Public safety is part of it, but it's a bigger issue.
I don't think I'm responding to your question accurately, but....
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
I think you are.
Does anyone else want to comment on this?
Mr. Lipkus seems to be anxious.
Chair, Education and Training Committee, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
I was saying I've had the pleasure of having people over the years say, come and show me. I can tell you there are a few things in the works, but certainly any time anybody wants to come and visit a place like the Pacific Mall or take a look at the St-Eustache Drive-In Flea Market or the Richmond Night Market--we could find lots of places to look at in whatever jurisdictions.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
Because it's not just flea markets. What you're going to see is what looks to you and me like a mall, and there are 140 stores in there.
Chair, Education and Training Committee, Canadian Anti-Counterfeiting Network
There are about 450 stores.
President, Canadian Recording Industry Association
Really? There are 450 stores in there, and it's something to behold on a Saturday or a Friday before Christmas, or at any one of the big shopping periods. I know the first time I saw it, I was stunned by what I saw.
