Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was person.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Commissioner Raf Souccar  Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superintendent Derek R. Ogden  Director General, Drugs and Organized Crime, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
David Bird  Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
William Bartlett  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice Canada

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 38. Today we are going to hear witnesses in review of the witness protection program.

We would like to welcome three members of the RCMP, and also, from the Department of Justice, Mr. William Bartlett, to give us any comments or analysis as the meeting progresses.

Assistant Commissioner Souccar, I believe you are prepared to make an opening statement. You can introduce your colleagues and go ahead and make whatever remarks you wish to make.

Welcome to this committee. We appreciate your coming on this very important issue. Please go ahead.

11:05 a.m.

Assistant Commissioner Raf Souccar Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

Thank you for inviting me here today.

I am pleased to be here before you today, along with my colleague C/Supt. Derek Ogden, who is the Director General, Drugs & Organized Crime and directly responsible for, among other things, the Witness Protection Program. Derek reports directly to me.

With me also is Mr. David Bird, of RCMP legal services, and Mr. Bill Bartlett, who is with the Department of Justice's criminal law policy section.

My title is assistant commissioner, federal and international operations, and in this capacity I'm responsible for drugs and organized crime, border integrity, financial crime, and international operations. I am also the officer to whom the Commissioner of the RCMP has delegated the authority to admit or terminate individuals from the witness protection program.

If I may, I'd like to start by setting out for you some general principles relative to the Witness Protection Program.

The witness protection program is an extremely important tool for law enforcement and for the judicial system. It is used primarily in the most serious criminal investigations and is recognized in many countries around the world as an essential component of an effective justice system.

The witness protection program in Canada has afforded witnesses the confidence to provide testimony in a variety of very serious criminal offences. While information provided to police by informants is afforded a certain degree of protection by the courts, information from persons acting on behalf of the police, referred to as agents, is not protected and is revealed in its entirety to the accused party.

There is a very important distinction between informants and agents, which I'll be more than happy to discuss or explain, if you so wish, at some point during my testimony.

Because of their willingness to testify against the accused, these witnesses end up facing the real threat of revenge against them and their families. When this real threat of harm exists, persons will in many cases only consider assisting law enforcement if they have complete confidence in the ability of the police to protect them. They must be assured that they will be able to provide testimony without fear of harm, and they must have confidence that the witness protection program will protect their new identity and their new location.

Loss of confidence in the witness protection program could have a very detrimental ripple effect. Witnesses would be reluctant to come forward, and police agents would refuse to provide assistance in our country's most complex organized crime and/or national security investigations.

The Witness Protection Program Act came into effect on June 20, 1996. Although the Act states that the Commissioner of the RCMP is responsible for the administration of the Program, as I indicated at the outset of my comments, the Commissioner has delegated the responsibility of admissions and terminations to me.

Under the act, protection measures may include relocation, change of identity, and counselling and/or financial support to ensure witnesses’ security or to facilitate witnesses’ re-establishment or ability to become self-sufficient. It is common practice to provide all protectees who enter the witness protection program access to a psychologist to assist them in adjusting to their new life. Witnesses entering the witness protection program are deemed to be in the program for life. They are encouraged to become self-sufficient and to integrate themselves into society as soon as possible.

Entry into the witness protection program is guided by some very clear criteria, as set out in sections 6 and 7 of the witness protection act. Once it is established that a witness is suitable for admission to the witness protection program, the witness must enter into a protection agreement. All protection agreements contain the reciprocal obligations of both parties.

For example, under the act, the RCMP has the obligation to take all reasonable steps to provide the protection referred to in the agreement. The witness, on the other hand, has the obligation to do such things as provide testimony, meet all financial obligations prior to the change of identity, meet all legal obligations such as custody or maintenance of children, and refrain from any illegal activities.

Once they are admitted into the witness protection program, section 11 of the act provides for the continued protection of the identity of the protectee. Specifically, this section states that it is an offence to knowingly disclose, directly or indirectly, information about the location or the change of identity of a protectee. It should be noted that it is also an offence to disclose such information about a former witness who is no longer under protection.

The commissioner may disclose the location, or the change of identity, of a protectee or former protectee in the witness protection program under certain circumstances with the consent of the protectee or former protectee—if, for instance, the protectee or former protectee has previously disclosed the information or acted in a way that results in the disclosure, or disclosure is essential to the public interest, such as in criminal proceedings where the disclosure is essential to establish the innocence of a person.

The Witness Protection Program is managed by RCMP Witness Protection Coordinators located across Canada.

These Witness Protection coordinators and handlers form an integral part of all major investigations dealing with human sources and are specifically trained in this area of operations.

Witness protection considerations are usually addressed prior to the use of a human source as an agent. In a drug investigation, for example, when the use of a human source in an agent capacity is first proposed, the source handler will provide a proposal to the divisional witness protection coordinator for approval. The coordinator assesses whether the proposed source would be suitable for the witness protection program and whether or not we would be able to provide the appropriate protection to ensure his or her safety.

Admission to the witness protection program is a life-altering process. The protectees and their families are typically relocated to a new location and must sever ties with family and friends. This process is explained very clearly by the witness protection coordinators to the potential protectees prior to their beginning to assist the RCMP. Upon relocation, the protectee and family must start a new life in every sense of the word.

For many protectees, this is an opportunity to start a new life free of criminal activity. In order to assist them with this transition, protectees and family are provided access to psychological counselling to assist them with the transition to the new life. They're also provided with access to a witness protection coordinator on a 24/7 basis, to assist them with any difficulties they may encounter during their transition stage. The goal of the program, however, is to promote self-sufficiency as soon as possible. Protectees are well informed, verbally and in a written protective agreement, that any breach of protective conditions could lead to termination from the program.

I should note at this point that protectees are verbally informed, and it is documented in their protection agreement, that their admission to the program does not provide them immunity from prosecution. All individuals who enter the witness protection program continue to be subject to all Canadian laws. They are not treated differently from anyone else.

Being in the witness protection program does not confer immunity from responsibility for criminal actions, either before or after they enter the program. They remain subject to all acts of Parliament, like any other Canadian citizen. Furthermore, they are clearly advised that their existing criminal history remains with them, even if they have undergone an identity change. In other words, their criminal history will follow them to their new identity.

This is an important point here. The only protection the witness protection program provides a protectee is protection from individuals who may be trying to cause the protectee in question grievous bodily harm or death to prevent him or her from testifying against them in a criminal proceeding.

There are two types of terminations from the witness protection program: a voluntary termination and non-voluntary termination. A voluntary termination occurs when the protectee decides on his or her own to leave the program. This often occurs when the protectee decides that he or she can no longer abide by the conditions of the protection agreement, and in most instances protectees decide to return to the area of risk, where they are known, for varying reasons.

A non-voluntary termination is usually the result of a protectee contravening a condition of the agreement. In many cases, this is a result of the protectee being involved in criminal activity or in some way violating a condition of the protective agreement, such as returning to the threat area or disclosing his new identity or location.

Prior to an individual's termination from the witness protection program, reasonable steps are taken to notify the protectee of the decision and to allow him or her an opportunity to make representation concerning the matter.

These are my comments.

Thank you for allowing me to make these opening comments.

My colleagues and I would be more than pleased to answer any questions you may have.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much for those remarks outlining the program. As is our usual custom, we will now go to questions and comments, beginning with the official opposition, the Liberal party. Interventions in the opening round are seven minutes in length.

Ms. Barnes.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you very much for coming today. This is the preliminary part, so I'll ask some basic questions here.

Has there ever been a conviction under subsection 11(1) of the act? This is your disclosure offence.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I would remind committee that the witnesses cannot refer to individual cases. They'll have to be very careful.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I'm very aware of that.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

You're very aware of that? Good.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

That's why I'm starting this section, Mr. Chair.

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

The answer is no.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Okay. How many instances have there been, when there were no convictions, when any information was released? Have there been any incidents of releasing information?

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

Are we talking about disclosures?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Yes, inadvertent or otherwise.

11:15 a.m.

Chief Superintendent Derek R. Ogden Director General, Drugs and Organized Crime, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

We've had a number of cases in which the witnesses themselves did things to divulge that they were in the program. When that happens, what we'll often do is serve them a notice of breach, saying that they've breached the protective agreement. But we may keep them in the program, and what we'll do is go through the steps again to provide them with a new secure identity and move them again.

We have the number of voluntary breaches and involuntary breaches for the last three years, but as to specific numbers on how many times we've had incidents when there may have been an indication that a person was in the program, I can't give you an accurate number.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Can anybody else refresh their memories?

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

I don't have any of the statistics with me, and I don't know that we would keep statistics of an inadvertent breach, especially if it's by a human source, by a protectee, when we would not possibly have—

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I'm not talking about protectees. I'm talking about any other information that leaks out.

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

Are you referring to inadvertent disclosure by police?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Yes. Is there any instance of that?

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

I have no knowledge of that.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Excuse me, maybe somebody could refresh his memory. Mr. Bird.

11:15 a.m.

David Bird Counsel, RCMP Legal Services, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Yes, I could say that there have been cases in which people have had their identities disclosed as a result of court proceedings.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I think that's correct. I would have thought that everybody should have been properly briefed here. Anyway, I won't go further into that. I'm glad it's on the record now. Thank you.

Now, let's talk a little bit about some of the reasons why people would not want to go into the witness protection program, because maybe a lot of the public wouldn't understand that. So let's get that on the record, too.

11:15 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

The witness protection program is a very structured program, tightly framed, that requires individuals to, for example, relocate to areas that are possibly far away from where they've lived for most of their lives, far away from their friends and far away from their families, with a very clear understanding that they cannot go back to the initial location, because that's the location that's considered the threat area. Given that, there's a reluctance sometimes to enter the program, knowing that they cannot go back to an area where they've grown up or lived most of their lives.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Now again, very briefly, when you put a witness into the witness protection program—say they're married and have kids—are they also covered by the program? That's just for the record, please.

11:20 a.m.

A/Commr Raf Souccar

Yes, absolutely. Anybody associated with the protectee whose life or safety may be in jeopardy as a result of the assistance rendered to us by the agent who ends up being a protectee would certainly be offered the opportunity to get into the witness protection program. Some refuse. Adults will refuse. Minors would go with the parents. Those who refuse, the adults who refuse, have to live with the decision. Those who accept move with the protectee.