Public Safety Committee on May 29th, 2006

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks, folks, for your presentation.

I have a number of questions, starting with Mr. Head.

For the last three years I've spent a fair bit of time talking to corrections officers in Edmonton and elsewhere and I've spent a little time at the Edmonton max, but they did let me out at the end of the day, so I'm grateful for that.

You talked a little about the rust-out of facilities. I'd like to talk a little about the rust-out of people. We didn't address staff in your briefings. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think corrections officers have been without a contract for a little over four years. My understanding is the sticking point is pensions and their designation as a hazardous profession where their pension accrual rate could be increased under legislation--potentially as high as 2.67%, but 2.33% would be more the norm--to allow them to retire with full pension a little bit earlier, considering the hazards of their profession and the wear and tear that they endure. Their pensionable time on average after retirement is very low because they've been ridden hard and put away wet and they don't last very long.

Where is that whole process? Is there is anything that can be done? What's your suggestion to expedite that whole contract process?

[Don Head]

I think the Treasury Board would probably be in a better position, as they're responsible for both aspects of that portfolio. We have been working very closely with Treasury Board officials to try to find solutions to many of the various issues that have been brought up by the union at the negotiating table.

Although the negotiations started under the old legislation, the new legislation actually allowed us the opportunity to do what is called two-tiered bargaining with the union, so Correctional Services Canada could directly negotiate with the union on issues that were solely specifically within the realm of operations of CSC. We completed that phase of the negotiations several months ago. Like I said, Treasury Board is in a better position to provide the outcome of the two specific pieces that you've raised.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I have a question on the operational part you have negotiated with them over the past number of months. One of the things that was brought up to me was working conditions and the safety of the corrections officers and things like not being allowed to wear vests. There were no vests available from the system. They weren't allowed to wear their own vests. If they brought their own vests in, they were disciplined and sent home, notwithstanding the high incidence of violence against guards. The other one was the non-availability of pepper spray, which was locked away until they needed it, and of course when you need it, you need it.

Are those the kinds of issues that have been addressed by what you just talked about? Have they been addressed to the satisfaction more or less of these officers?

[Don Head]

Yes. We worked very closely with the union on a series of what we'll call safety and security issues, including things such as armed escorts for maximum security offenders who are leaving the institution. On the issue of vests, we reached a resolution with them last year on that and we're now just waiting for the actual procurement of the vests that were agreed upon. On the issue of the OC spray, we're just in the final stages coming up with a solution to that approach. On the issuing of handcuffs to staff in security levels of institutions, that issue was addressed last year.

Also, through the two-tiered bargaining process, we agreed with a forum for the union and management to sit down and to discuss very specifically at regular times in the year issues that are specific to the safety and security of correctional officers. The union was very pleased with the outcomes of those discussions.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Good. I have a question on crowding, vacancies, and so on. You mentioned there are vacancies in minimum security. I don't think there are vacancies in maximum security.

[Don Head]

No, sir.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

And what I saw at the Edmonton max is that there's a waiting list for solitary, because when somebody in a maximum security prison gets sent to solitary—comfort is a relative term—it's much more comfortable than in the normal prison existence, whereas in a provincial jail when you're sent to solitary—and this may be an exaggeration—I'm told it's a pair of pink baby doll pyjamas and a bible and knock yourself out.

Has anything been brought up or suggested to address the conditions in solitary in federal prisons to make them less desirable to go and spend time there?

[Don Head]

If people go into segregation, our mandate under the law is to work as hard as we can to have them returned to the general population. We actually have two categories of offenders in segregation: we have those who are there involuntarily, because they either pose a disciplinary problem or it was part of a disciplinary sanction at a disciplinary hearing; and we have individuals who are voluntarily in segregation, sometimes for protection reasons, trying to deal with a debt problem that they have in the general population.

At the same time, under the current legislation, when inmates are in that portion of the institution, the legislation is very clear that they are entitled, except for those things that are restricted by being in segregation, to the same kinds of amenities and opportunities that the general population is entitled to.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

It strikes me as a little odd that when people go into segregation, they've got all of the amenities that they have in their normal cells and the only things they don't do are their jobs in the library or the laundry. It doesn't seem to be much of a punishment to me.

[Don Head]

Again, the legislative purpose of segregation was to take people out of circulation for a period of time, with the very clear intent of having them reintegrated.

As I said, one of our challenges is on the issue of people voluntarily wanting to go there. Those who go in voluntarily don't want to be there anyway, but the voluntary piece is a problem. It's more in the nature of how to provide the right level of safety for those individuals in that institution.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'm asking this question because it was suggested to me. The rate of statutory release from a maximum security prison—and I'm specifically talking about Edmonton because it's one I was familiar with—is driven by the fact that there aren't vacancies and people have to leave.

[Don Head]

One of the challenges that we have right now is around the number of individuals who are being released on statutory release from maximum security institutions, not only Edmonton, but others across the country. We initiated a pilot project in Donnacona, in the Quebec region, to try to find a way to manage that.

On the surface, it's hard to explain to anybody, including myself, how somebody can live in a maximum security institution today and be out on the street tomorrow on statutory release. It doesn't sit well with anybody. We have to find ways to prepare them for that release. It's no longer a gradual release; it's basically a day-and-night kind of situation. We have been experimenting with a pilot project in the Quebec region.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You'll have to wrap it up.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I have a quick question for Collette. Are there any statistics that relate to people on statutory release from maximum security prisons and the rate of recidivism?

[Renée Collette]

No, I don't believe so. There may be some. I can look into it and try to give that to you.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I have examples from Edmonton that I think would be startling.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'd appreciate any relevant research that you have.

We'll move to Mr. Cotler and the Liberal Party, but I have one question. Neither of you mentioned who it is you report to. Under the jurisdiction of the minister, we have several departments. What is the relationship between you and the department? Who do you report to?

[Renée Collette]

We report to the Minister of Public Safety, Mr. Day. The board is an independent tribunal. I would say that we report directly to the minister administratively speaking, but in our decision-making we're an independent tribunal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

[Don Head]

The commissioner has very specific powers under the Corrections and Conditional Release Act. He takes direction from the Minister of Public Safety. Again, we're part of the public safety portfolio. The Department of Pubic Safety is more directly involved in the overall setting of general policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You'll have to help me out here, because I toured the facilities at Laurier Avenue many years ago. If you report directly to the minister, what do all the people there do? What role do they play in all of this? Do you know?

[Renée Collette]

The board is no longer at 340 Laurier. We've moved to 410 Laurier West.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

But there is a department and a number of employees. There used to be several hundred. What's their role in relation to what you do?

[Renée Collette]

The board is part of a certain committee that talks more about policy issues. We're not involved in anything other than what is mandated by law, which is making decisions about parole. So it's a different situation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I understand you report directly to the minister. I just couldn't figure out why all these employees were over there and what they were doing.