Public Safety Committee on Jan. 30th, 2008

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

In many “train the trainer” programs--and I'm not suggesting around tasers but in other “train the trainer” programs--there is follow-up to document or evaluate how well the training has worked, have people been able to work with it, have there been any problems with it, etc. Do you do that?

[Tom Smith]

We absolutely do. In fact, we just released version 14 of our own trainings over the last several years. And Mr. Palmer mentioned earlier that the feedback loop is a key factor for any training, so we take that very seriously also. We'll continually update to provide the latest material to send out. We've done 14 different versions.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

The reason I'm worried about that is that there's at least one case I'm aware of in which I think it was actually a police officer who brought a lawsuit--I believe, but I am not certain--because of a taser. The comment was made that when he was being voluntarily tasered and injured his back the officers who were tasering him had not been holding him correctly. Therefore, I do worry about how training can get diluted, if you will, if there is not extremely consistent follow-up with it. So in that circumstance, I wanted to know about training the trainer.

The other part I'm interested in, and it just seems an irony, is whether the tasers bought by individuals in the United States are the same.

[Tom Smith]

The electrical pulse they deliver is the same. We limit the distance to 15 feet, where for law enforcement it's 35 feet.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

And they get a DVD.

I just think of the irony. If I buy a new bread maker or lawnmower, I get a booklet and a DVD. If I buy a taser I get a booklet and a DVD for how to use it. There just seems to be some inconsistency in training. However, we're not talking about selling them here.

Mr. Palmer, do you think the training that is going on across the country is consistent? Canadians have a right to know that they are safe and that equipment is being used safely, no matter where they live in this country. Do you think the training is consistent?

I'm concerned that you can only make recommendations; you can't collect data from people in Canada primarily. We're told that only provinces can make recommendations. Is that also the case with the RCMP, that you could only make recommendations to the RCMP?

[Steve Palmer]

As an organization, we have no legislative authority, no.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

We have three or four organizations all involved in something that citizens are very concerned about, yet both the responsibility and the coordination seem to be spread amongst a number of organizations--provincially, federally, municipally, the manufacturer, the training, etc. It doesn't seem to me there's much coordination so you have somebody who insists that, across the country, this is the training, this is the protocol; you call an ambulance, a paramedic, before you use it. These are the things we guarantee citizens when tasers are used.

I must admit that's of real concern to me.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a comment, Mr. Smith?

[Tom Smith]

Yes, I do. You bring that up in the context of just a taser. I would say we are following the industry standard--what is being done for pepper spray, for the baton, for physical restraint, for firearms. The standard that's out there, that we're following in training the trainer and the way the officers are being trained, is consistent with the way they're trained in use of force in general.

I would just say you're probably going to want to look at all of that, because this is, again, just one piece of the puzzle in the whole training application for law enforcement.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Of course, one can always be better and therefore set a higher standard for other implements that other people are training with.

[Tom Smith]

We think we have the best training out there today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll now really go over to the government side.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Actually, Mr. Smith, I appreciate what you just said. I thought we'd gotten way off base. All we're talking about is the taser. We don't check off boxes when our police officers use an ASP. We don't check off boxes when they use Monadnock sticks. We don't check off boxes when they use a number of other use of force options.

With all due respect to what Ms. Priddy said, the provinces are responsible for the administration of justice. Not only are the RCMP in provinces across the country, they are also municipal forces in those provinces. The provinces, as I think Mr. Dosanjh said, set their rules across the country. The Province of Quebec, the Province of Ontario, the Province of British Columbia all may have different reporting documents, if you will, for the use of force.

Mr. Palmer, I would just ask you if it would not be virtually impossible to try to gather the information that the committee's asking, because there may very well be different interpretations across the country by the provincial authorities on what's required to report the use of force, and tasers are only one small part.

[Steve Palmer]

Yes, you're right. It would take a consistent agreement negotiated at the Solicitor General level, I suspect, among all provinces, to get the information and establish the reporting systems, etc., to bring it all in on a consistent basis. They are used, but it's not the principal tool of police. It's used in a very small percentage of the time.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

That's good enough. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. We will now go over to the official opposition.

Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

“Research” is a word that has different meanings to different people. When I think of peer review research, I'm thinking of people with doctorates doing some studies and having it verified by other people of that level. You mentioned the Canadian Police Research Centre. Has there been peer-reviewed research done in the Canadian Police Research Centre, say, within the last five years?

[Steve Palmer]

Yes, I would say the work that we did on the taser last time...because we used a committee that came up and did peer review research that included scientists, medical practitioners, and others. In that case, it wasn't published in an established journal. We had our own peer review committee look at the work. We've also had some of our people publish in peer review journals.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay. My understanding, from your answer to Ms. Brown earlier, was that it was a literature review.

[Steve Palmer]

Yes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

That's not peer-reviewed research.

[Steve Palmer]

The review, the comments, and the recommendations that we made in the report went through a review committee of scientists and researchers, so they did have that independent oversight, a peer review, if you wish to call it that.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay. Peer review has a specific meaning in research communities.

[Steve Palmer]

Yes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I think we're not talking about the same thing.

I'm going to ask Mr. Smith this. I notice you have different countries here, often in the Commonwealth--the Australia, the U.K. home branch. Did any of these countries, before using your product, do their own physical research on people? Canada has not done that, but did any of these countries do it?