Public Safety Committee on Jan. 30th, 2008

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Whether you agree with that or not, it seems to me that it opens up this huge grey area of how you interpret whether a person is exhibiting all this behaviour. If you look at sweating, bizarre behaviour, and exhaustive exertion, it's a pretty broad range. I'm just worried about law enforcement officers—not with any devious intent—applying that so broadly that it loses its meaning.

[Tom Smith]

I agree. One of the things that I think are key for our tool or any tool is a good comprehensive policy on how any use of force, taser included, is going to be employed by the officers, and then good training, so that they understand the policy and understand what the different tools can do, because they do have to make split-second decisions on how they are going to deal with this subject.

Typically it's in a very small minority of cases that they have to use force in dealing with the everyday public, if a good policy and good training regimen is set up to establish how the force is going to be used.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I think that's it for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That's right. It's only a five-minute round.

Madame Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I am going to share my time with Mr. Ménard.

We have talked about use in the context of the training received by the users. Is that training sufficient? We are familiar with your research studies. Some people are at risk, such as pregnant women and smaller elderly people. Is this weapon not equally harmful when it is used on people who are intoxicated or on drugs? We have talked about the state of excited delirium a lot today.

[Tom Smith]

Again, we go back to the medical research. One of the leading studies that have been completed was done by the Cleveland Clinic, which is the number one heart institute in the United States, where we were provided funds to ask that very question. They put animals on cocaine and exposed them to the taser to evaluate whether there was a higher degree of risk when those subjects were on a drug and exposed to the taser. The conclusion of that, which was a peer-reviewed study, showed that in fact being on cocaine did not increase the risk following the use of a taser. In fact, it made it much harder to stimulate them with electricity. Therefore, it was determined to be safer by the Cleveland Clinic.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You have only done the tests on animals? Have you done the same kind of test on humans?

[Tom Smith]

The only test we've been able to do on humans is with alcohol. We cannot get the ethical review board to take an illegal drug and apply it to human subjects for the testing. We're bound by the ethics of the medical community as to what they can do in terms of studies.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Do deaths related to taser use involve any one model in particular?

[Tom Smith]

No. We've had in-custody deaths occur following the use of both devices.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I see. Thank you.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Do I have a few minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are you done? Okay.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Can I use them?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Oh, you're sharing your time.

Go ahead.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I see that you have brought a lot of studies with you. What percentage of those studies have you contributed to?

[Tom Smith]

In the studies, when you look at our research, we actually highlight that this was a study that was funded by Taser International. I would estimate today that it's about 20% of the research. The 80%, for example, the Canadian research, the United Kingdom research, the Australian research, the U.S. Air Force research, was all done independently of our organization.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would like to know if you agree with the principle that a taser should be used only when a firearm could be used, and that it should be used in place of a firearm.

I will put the question to Mr. Smith first.

[Tom Smith]

Again, I'm going to rely on the use of force experts who tell us that you do not take a taser to a gun fight. And that's where 86% of the agencies using our technology have it, at the level of active resistance or physical confrontation between people.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

That is not quite the question I asked. Should it not be used only when deadly force could be used?

[Tom Smith]

Again, I would say that the research we've seen from the use of force experts shows that it is not the only circumstance in which it should be used. It's going to be used at the same levels as pepper spray or a baton, which is before there's a lethal situation with a firearm.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Palmer, what do you think? Can you give us some insight?

[Steve Palmer]

I've seen research that shows that someone who has been exposed to a taser has still been able to fire a firearm. So it would put the public and the police officer at risk.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Chair, I wonder if my question could have been translated incorrectly.

I have often heard police officers say that a taser should only be used when they would use their firearm if they did not have a taser. Do you agree? If not, where do you disagree?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That's going to be your last question.

Does anybody want to give a brief response?