Public Safety Committee on Feb. 6th, 2008

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

We heard about endless delays. We know that quite a few organizations are now asking job applicants to provide a certificate of good behaviour or some proof that they do not have a criminal record. Many people who requested fingerprinting from the RCMP for that purpose had to face very long delays. Some candidates were eliminated because of the length of the delays, and somebody else got the job. In this way, some organizations may be deprived of very competent applicants who, had they been able to provide this kind of document, could have gotten a job. It can take up to 18 months to get fingerprints.

[Commr William Elliott]

I understand what you are saying, but I do not understand the question.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Do you find that such delays are normal?

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you very much.

I know that there are delays.

There is certainly a strain on our capacity to not only do the process of fingerprints but also to carry out other activities in relation to security clearances. We have taken steps to speed up the process and to move to automatic fingerprint identification.

Again, Mr. Chair, if specific information is desired, I'll have to undertake to get back to you with the details.

I would certainly say that it's not at all an ideal situation where there are lengthy delays, but there are capacity issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Time has expired on that round.

For the government side, Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Commissioner, for coming this afternoon. I'm going to start by making a couple of statements and then soliciting a response to a few questions that I'll be posing to you.

First I want you to know that I was a proud member of the Ontario Provincial Police for over 30 years, and I'm even more fiercely proud of the men and women who go to work every day for the RCMP and do their job free of any political influence, probably not knowing a lot about what goes on in this place, except that they know they have a job to do and they're going to go out and do the best job they can each and every day.

That's one of the challenges I've put on myself as a member of this government and as a member of this committee. Thank goodness we have the Brown report, which addresses many of the problems that I think are challenges to you and the RCMP every day.

My experience in a deployed police force is quite frankly that when changes occur at the top that are good, they rather quickly filter down to the bottom.

I also want to address one of the other issues that was brought up with regard to your not being a regular member of the RCMP and now being commissioner. I can recall again in my previous employ a commissioner who was not a member of the OPP and who did become commissioner of the Ontario Provincial Police and who faced some of the same questions you are faced with. Quite frankly, he is looked upon as one of the best commissioners ever in the Ontario Provincial Police. So whether or not you look at that as a compliment, I can assure you that it was meant as that. He did bring about a lot of changes because he had a slightly different perspective, but he also realized that he had a duty to respect the fact that he needed the help of those who were members.

I have one other comment, and I apologize if I'm on my soapbox, but quite frankly I think it needs to be said. I only hope that never would an RCMP officer, no matter what the rank is, be influenced by a politician or by a person's standing in the community when it comes down to the exercise of his or her duty. That would be the death knell to all police officers and all police organizations in this country.

So it doesn't matter when you are assigned an investigation, if the evidence leads you into an investigation, you do it at that time and you do it irrespective of what's going on around you and you do it in the best and the most professional manner.

I'd like to go back to the Brown report. I know that you and the Minister of Public Safety are looking at that report. I am wondering if you could expand on any of the issues that are solely the responsibility of the RCMP, changes that you envisage taking or that you may be commencing that might be of assistance to the committee.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you very much.

In fact, others have brought Commissioner Silk to my attention, including serving and former members of the Ontario Provincial Police. I take heart in the fact that he is now much revered by past and serving members of the OPP. I also note that he brought in fundamental reforms and he was commissioner for 10 years.

With respect to the task force report and things that we are moving forward on, I guess I'd cite a few examples. A matter we've actually dealt with and on which we are now moving toward implementation predates a bit the task force report, although it was a subject of considerable discussion with the task force, and that is the RCMP's new backup policy. We are making amendments to our non-commissioned officer promotion process. We are expanding our efforts with respect to recruiting. We are actively engaged in identifying improvements to the internal governance structure of the RCMP. The report, of course, makes some big recommendations with respect to governance, but we are looking at how to better support decision-making within the force. We're engaged in work to do that and to better support and manage the work of our senior executive committee. We're also making changes to the structure of that committee and the individuals and some changes to the personnel on that committee. In fact, I made an announcement today with respect to the appointment of a new chief financial and administrative officer and a new chief human resources officer.

We are certainly looking very seriously at a number of other areas, including in relation to how we can best tap into senior NCOs. The task force recommends that we look at the model of the Canadian Forces. They have a chief warrant officer for the force who sits as a member of General Hillier's executive committee. I've met with General Hillier and with the force's chief warrant officer, and I expect we'll be making some changes with respect to that.

I guess the good news and the bad news is there are lots of things we're moving on.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Barnes, you're next.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you.

Commissioner, I wish you well. This country needs this confidence back. I know as a member from London, with “O” Division in London, there are good men and women working hard every day. I do acknowledge that.

I was quite proud, actually. I was at an international meeting of parliamentarians in Indonesia last spring and the RCMP was there working on sexual exploitation on the Internet with other countries. I think that's an important piece of work, and I'd like you to expand on how that's done, just for the record.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you very much.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I guess I'd like to refer back to my opening comments when I indicated I have lots to learn.

Certainly I can make some comments, but depending on the level of detail the committee is looking for, we may want to arrange--

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Perhaps you can send that material on and I can ask some other questions.

[Commr William Elliott]

Okay, but we certainly have been very actively involved with other police forces, both in Canada and internationally, including working with Interpol. We've had some successes, and there's been recent media coverage of a number of prominent cases and charges that have been laid.

I might just comment, getting back to an earlier question, that in part we were able to conclude some investigations successfully because of the cooperation of Internet service providers. That is not always the case, and that's an issue.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Okay.

When was multiple tasering allowed inside the RCMP? Did I read that it was in late summer? Do you have an idea of the dates? Perhaps you can send that in as well.

[Commr William Elliott]

I'd be happy to do that.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

How often do you meet with the RCMP complaints commissioner? Is that a regular thing you would do, or is it just as needed, or...?

[Commr William Elliott]

I don't know that there is an established pattern. We certainly deal on an ongoing basis—if it's not a daily basis, I would suggest it's a weekly basis—with his staff and members of the RCMP. I think I have probably only dealt directly with Mr. Kennedy on two or three occasions since I became commissioner.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

The last time Mr. Kennedy was at this committee he tabled a piece of draft potential legislation, because he felt that the RCMP complaints legislation could be improved. Have you had a chance to look at that?

[Commr William Elliott]

I guess the short answer is yes, and I would certainly agree that the current regime is inadequate. I note that Mr. O'Connor made recommendations with respect to review of the RCMP as well.

But the other comment I would make is that one of the key aspects of review and oversight is the notion of independence, and decisions with respect to what the regime should or will be will not be taken by the RCMP.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I hope we have you back, maybe on an every five- to six-month basis as you're getting in, because I think there's more information we'd like to hear.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll move over to the government side now.

Mr. Brown, you have five minutes, please.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Commissioner Elliott, for being here today. Your visit is very useful for the committee, to see how things are developing now that you've been in the job for a little while.

You mentioned some of the lows you've had since you took over the role. One of them specifically was the deaths of Constables Warden and Scott. As you know, Constable Douglas Scott was from my riding, and I'm sure you recall that you and I attended the funeral on that very sad day.

There were some recommendations that came out of those two tragic occurrences specifically dealing with your officers working in remote communities in a work-alone situation. Can you tell us whether some of those recommendations and some of those suggestions have been implemented?

[Commr William Elliott]

As I indicated earlier, the RCMP has in fact adopted a new backup policy that has implications across the country, including financial implications with our contract partners. We're working on implementation.

We have made it mandatory that a number of situations require a response by more than one member of the RCMP—in the language of the policy, a multi-member response. Those include calls of violence or where violence is anticipated; a domestic dispute; an occurrence involving the use, display, or threatened use of a weapon; an occurrence involving a subject who poses a threat to himself/herself or others; areas where communications are known to be deficient; or any occurrence or situation where the member believes he or she requires a multiple-member response, based on the risk assessment.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much. As you know, that's something that's discussed quite widely in my riding in light of the fact that Constable Scott was from there.

Turning to the integrated border enforcement team—this is something that's once again quite important in my area along the St. Lawrence River—how would you describe the marine border surveillance capacity currently on the Great Lakes and along the St. Lawrence River?

I could get a lot more into border issues, but this is something I'm quite interested in.

[Commr William Elliott]

I've talked about our being more forthright. My forthright response is one word, and that is, it's inadequate.