Public Safety Committee on Feb. 6th, 2008

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Elliott, I have a couple of questions.

The increased incidence of contraband tobacco is creating a lot of interest in many quarters. When we were the government, there was definitely an anti-smoking strategy, particularly with respect to youth. The kind of contraband that's going on now is different from what it was then, because the duties are now imposed at the plant, so the idea of just bringing tobacco back around through the back door is really, technically, and I think practically speaking, dealt with.

Our government always knew that once you ramp up the duties on cigarettes, you get to a point where people are interested in manufacturing these cigarettes, either offshore or in the United States, or maybe domestically here in Canada.

I know that dealing with illegal activities on reserves is a touchy point, but are you aware of the increase in contraband tobacco? What is the RCMP doing about it? Maybe you could talk specifically about the sensitivities around police action on reserves, if that's what's required.

[Commr William Elliott]

Certainly I'm very well aware of the problems associated with contraband tobacco. This is an area where part of the message I think we have to get across to Canadians is that they have to be cognizant of the fact that people who are dealing with contraband tobacco are often involved in other illegal activity. Certainly the activities of organized crime in relation to contraband tobacco and illicit drugs are a very, very serious concern.

We have been involved in a number of joint operations--no pun intended--and I just read recently a report about seizures and arrests that were made in January that involved thousands of cartons of cigarettes and thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars of illegal drugs and cash. So we are having some success, including, by the way, in working with other partners, including aboriginal police forces.

The situation in places such as Akwesasne were certainly very much front and centre in the consideration that led to the pilot project that took place last summer, which I referred to earlier, one of the Shiprider pilots. We also did a pilot on the west coast of British Columbia. I think that was a very successful joint activity that reduced the illicit traffic across the border between Canada and the United States. But I would say we've only touched the tip of the iceberg.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you. I have one final question.

I have a female constituent in my riding who alleges she is a victim of domestic violence perpetrated by a member of a police force. I say “alleges” because I don't know exactly where it is in the process. In fact, that's the reason for my question. She's quite frustrated with the police. In this case, it's the Toronto Police Service. She's really unable to get a lot of cooperation.

Within the RCMP, if one of your officers were to be accused of something like that or there were a tip-off or some complaint, when it's an RCMP officer himself or herself, how would you deal with that? What she is claiming to me is that there's a “circle the wagons” mentality and they're not really dealing with her complaint very well or very seriously. How do you deal with that in the RCMP?

[Commr William Elliott]

We take domestic violence very seriously. I'm sad to report that there have been a number of incidents reported and a number of charges laid against members of the RCMP in the short time that I've been commissioner. I would certainly encourage your constituent to make her concerns known.

With respect to the RCMP, the CPC and Mr. Kennedy would be where you would take that complaint. There is a complaint mechanism in the province of Ontario that would be applicable. But certainly our policy is very clear. We expect higher standards of members and employees of the RCMP, and where they break the law, they will be investigated and charged and punished. Often, unfortunately, that also results in their discharge from the RCMP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Two more people have indicated they have questions.

Monsieur Ménard first, and then Ms. Priddy.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Though many others have already asked you questions on this, I will also ask you a question on Taser guns.

There are two things that concern me. I was Minister of Public Safety when we began thinking about using Taser guns. At the time, we were told that this was a weapon which would save lives, since the police could use it before using firearms when there was a good reason for using those. Other people testified before the committee but told us that this was no longer how it was being used. The Taser gun can replace the nightstick very well and make arrests easier.

What is the policy on Taser guns? Does the RCMP consider the Taser gun a last-resort weapon, to be used just before a firearm would be?

Moreover, in the literature we read and the testimony we heard, it seems that most people who have died as a result of Taser gun use were suffering from excited delirium. Even though psychiatry books make no mention of excited delirium, it remains that Taser gun advocates prefer to cite excited delirium as the cause of death.

What are the symptoms of excited delirium? How can one recognize those symptoms before deciding what weapon to use, since one cannot order a medical examination before the person in question is arrested? One of the symptoms of excited delirium is extreme agitation, making the people suffering from it very difficult to subdue. If someone is suffering from delirium, then using a Taser gun would not be appropriate. I would like you to explain the RCMP's policy in those two cases.

Is the Taser gun genuinely a weapon of last resort, or rather of next-to-last resort, just before a firearm? According to RCMP Taser gun use protocol, or directives, should someone who is highly agitated not be subjected to a Taser gun jolt?

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think the honourable member is correct when he states that the current policies--I think this is the case not only for the RCMP but other police services--are not based on the notion that the only time you would deploy a conducted energy device is in a situation where you would otherwise use a firearm. It is a device that, based on a threat assessment, officers might deploy where they would otherwise resort to other means of less than lethal force.

I don't purport to be an expert in the use of force, and there certainly are lots of people in the RCMP who are, but my understanding is that the only time a taser would be deployed, where the other choice would be to use a firearm, would be in cases where there is another officer right there who will use a firearm if the deployment of a taser is not effective to gain control of the individual.

With respect to excited delirium, I understand a number of qualified individuals have concluded that deaths resulted from excited delirium, and those include findings by coroners in a number of cases, as well as other medical practitioners. I would certainly agree our officers are not in a position to make a diagnosis with respect to excited delirium. I think there are some characteristics, which we have read about, that are or can be indicative of excited delirium.

I understand medical opinion suggests the best way to gain control of someone suffering from excited delirium is to deploy a conducted energy device and get the person restrained and get the person medical attention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Priddy, you indicated that you have some questions.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I think sometimes there has been an understanding, or at least an impression, that not having enough RCMP officers is a result of a lack of capacity. You had indicated earlier, and I was very pleased to hear it, that this is not about capacity, it is about the need or goal of recruiting more individuals. I'm pleased to hear that.

I don't wish to get into the mechanics of how people are hired and leave, but it leads to something else, and that is whether exit interviews are done when people leave the force. I'm not talking about people who are retiring; I'm talking about other people who leave, whether that is then looked at in terms of a piece of research to give the RCMP some ability to plan around recruiting, by looking at the reasons for people leaving. Do you have any idea how this would compare with other police forces? I assume you may have--I'm not sure, it's a very stressful job--a higher number of people leaving than you might see in a different kind of organization. Nevertheless, is there research you can look at about why people are leaving and plan from that? Is it possible, perhaps, to provide to us at another time the percentage of officers who leave who are not leaving as a result of retirement and how that might compare to other forces?

[Commr William Elliott]

If I could start by responding to the comments about capacity, I'd like to clarify: we don't have a capacity issue at our training academy in Regina, known as Depot. I would not go so far as to suggest that there are not capacity issues that impact on our ability to actually attract and send people to Depot and have them become regular members of the RCMP. We have worked hard, for example, to reduce the amount of time it takes to process an application, but the new, better results still take about seven months. That's a lot longer than some other police forces, and there are capacity issues around that. I think we have to do a whole lot better.

With respect to our retention rates, we have done some work in this area, and I'm pleased to say that my understanding is that we actually have very good current statistics with respect to the number of people who stay until they're eligible for pensions. We do not, I don't believe, have a common practice to do exit interviews with respect to people who do depart early. I think this is certainly something we should look at. We have had work done by a number of people, including Professor Linda Duxbury, from Carleton University. She also provided material to the task force, and we're continuing to work with her to get a better understanding of ways that we can understand what motivates people of various backgrounds and demographics, with a view to trying to, if nothing else, keep our retention rates as good as they are.

We have challenges because other police forces and other entities actively recruit members of the RCMP. I've had a number of people who I know have been headhunted, people in senior positions in the RCMP, and unfortunately, we've had a number of people leave. We had one recently go to the nuclear industry. In Ontario we've had officers hired for the diamond industry. There's a lot of competition out there, and although we pay our police officers pretty well compared to other police forces, we don't pay them as well as the diamond industry does, I can tell you that.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I would like to pursue that. I would be interested, if you are going to do more research in that area, to hear back about the comparisons, perhaps at your next visit. Are people leaving for wages, are they leaving for other great jobs, are they leaving because they're burned out, and what does that look like? Surely that, of course, helps you plan some of your priorities as well.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are there any other questions?

Sir, I'd like to thank you very much for coming before the committee. I think it's been a very good session. It was good to have you come here.

There's no other business, so we will adjourn this meeting.