Evidence of meeting #15 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Gord Brown Conservative Leeds—Grenville, ON
So you'd be looking at the government to look a little bit more into that, especially—
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I can give you a more elaborate answer if that would be helpful.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I think it's better than it used to be, and certainly the advent of integrated border enforcement teams, where we have more men and women from the RCMP working in closer collaboration with other both domestic and U.S. law enforcement and public security agencies, has been a very positive step forward.
We've done a couple of pilots, including in the area of the seaway and the Thousand Islands, referred to as Shiprider. I was down in the fall with a number of individuals, including Mr. Wilkins, the U.S. ambassador, to meet with members of the U.S. Coast Guard and the RCMP, who were doing joint patrols, and that proved to be very effective.
We'd like to see that pilot lead to the creation of a number of significant enhancements. There are some impediments to doing that on an ongoing basis. We've been working with the Department of Justice and others to bring forward proposals with respect to how those impediments can be addressed.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Did I understand you were sharing your time? There are only 30 seconds left. Maybe you would want to do it in the next round.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Okay.
Mr. Dosanjh, you have indicated you are sharing your time with Mr. Cullen.
Conservative
Liberal
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I am a sharing kind of guy, but....
Mr. Commissioner, I have a couple of questions. One you can choose not to comment on and I will not hold it against you if you do. It is the issue of Deputy Commissioner George. As you know, some members of the Commons public accounts committee have expressed some surprise or disappointment that you have reinstated her. You obviously had your reasons.
Is there anything you would like to tell us to elaborate as to why you reinstated her, in view of all of the issues that arose in the context of the pension scandal? If you can't say, I understand, because I understand it may be an administrative issue.
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I did have the opportunity to appear before the public accounts committee to provide testimony on this specific question. I don't really have anything to say further than that.
In a nutshell, it was a disciplinary process instigated by my predecessor, Commissioner Busson. That process led to an investigative report, which was reviewed. Conclusions were taken with respect to the allegations that were the subject of the discipline. It was determined that there were not sufficient grounds or there were not grounds to proceed. Since the deputy commissioner had been suspended in relation to those allegations, there was no basis on which I would not reinstate her.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
You obviously are a career civil servant, or were, and now you are a commissioner for the RCMP, but you are in the position of a deputy to the public safety minister. You also recognize that you have an absolutely independent role as the commissioner.
I was the attorney general in British Columbia, and we had to go through the dance of maintaining that Chinese wall, and a real wall in terms of conflict for the deputy attorney general who would make decisions on the Criminal Code. How do you manage that relationship?
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
As I've said on a number of occasions, including earlier today, the independence of the police is fundamental in a democratic society, but I think it's safe to say that the RCMP is independent with respect to some things but very dependent with respect to other things.
Certainly no one can or should tell us who to investigate or how to investigate, but our funding is provided by Parliament as far as our federal policing is concerned and the contribution to provincial policing, and by other levels of government. Earlier we touched on independent oversight and review, and as I indicated, the government will take decisions with respect to that.
I think the minister and all of the department, and I and the members of the RCMP, are aware of the fact that we need to be very independent in many areas. Frankly, I think we need to be more cooperative with the department on a number of issues than perhaps we've been in the past.
I've often said that independence—and I'm not sure whether this is a great analogy—is like a trump card and we should not hesitate to play the trump card, but you can't play the trump card if the hand doesn't call for trump. We're working to establish even closer relationships with the department in a number of very important areas. For example, the current contracts for provincial, territorial, and municipal policing all expire in 2012. The lead for the negotiation of new contracts is not the RCMP but the Department of Public Safety.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I have just one last question.
Have you ever been tasered, voluntarily or otherwise?
Conservative
Conservative
Colin Mayes Conservative Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I just want to tell you how thankful I am that you've taken on this task, Commissioner Elliott. It's going to be a tough one, and I'm sure you're up to it.
Just to give you a little history, first of all, I'm an MP from British Columbia, and the RCMP takes care of the policing in British Columbia and has contracts with the municipalities. I was a mayor for nine years of a small community of 16,000 people, and we went through that 15,000 threshold on those contracts. The way it works is that if the population in the community is under 5,000, you don't pay anything; if it's between 5,000 and 15,000, the municipality pays 70% and the federal government pays 30%; and then if it goes over the 15,000 threshold, it's a 90-10 split.
In our community the policing contract took 24% of our tax revenue, and even at that we were still understaffed in the local detachment. The morale was down in the detachment and there was fatigue, and this is just asking for problems, not only for your staff but also with how they respond if they're in a fatigue situation. I know these contracts are coming due in 2012, and I really believe something that needs to be addressed by the federal government and the RCMP is how we are paying for those RCMP costs. If municipalities cannot afford to pay for the full complement that they need to adequately police the community, then it's just going to cause problems.
Is there anything that you can see in the future, in what you're looking at as far as addressing some of these issues, where you'd be looking at the cost of paying for policing?
Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Before I respond to that question, maybe I should, for the record, indicate that not only have I not been tasered, but I have never been pepper-sprayed, hit with a baton, or shot.
With respect to the costs and the implications of costs, that was a very major concern raised in the meeting I referred to that I had recently with mayors from the lower mainland of British Columbia. As I also indicated, the lead on contract negotiations is in fact with Public Safety Canada rather than the RCMP, but we are certainly very active participants with them.
I understand that policing is an increasingly costly activity. I talked about the increasing complexity of the environments in which we operate. Some of the questions touched on earlier, including some with respect to the exploitation of children, are indicative of the fact that the world has changed and in many ways has not changed for the better.
We are certainly interested in doing what we can to reduce costs. You may be interested to know that earlier this week our senior executive committee gave approval for a pilot project in the lower mainland to go forward. We're going to create a number of new positions called community safety officer positions. These will be unarmed—at least, they won't carry side arms—community safety officers who will work in support roles and will be less costly than regular members of the RCMP.
This is just an indication that we are open to finding new ways to deal with policing and the associated costs.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
That was a very good question, by the way. That's exactly the concern I had to deal with in my local community, which is approximately the same size as the community you were mayor of. They are being devastated, because they've gone over the 15,000 threshold. So I appreciate your raising that.
Unfortunately, you can't ask questions of the committee, but I'm sure you'd like to know whether the former Attorney General of British Columbia, who brought in tasers for the first time, was tasered before he did that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Does anybody else have some questions?
Do you have a question, Mr. Cullen?
