Public Safety Committee on Feb. 6th, 2008

[Commr William Elliott]

I'm not looking for any individuals in issues relating to the circumstances around the information sharing canvassed by Mr. O'Connor, which were all dealt with before I was appointed commissioner.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

As were many of the other issues that you will probably continue to see.

Let me ask, if I may, what is the single most important concrete example or thing that you could say to the public, I mean other than as a general answer, about what you believe needs to be done or what you are doing to rebuild the public confidence in the RCMP. I realize you have been out visiting across the country and talking to employees, and certainly I understand your first priority is to do that. But in terms of rebuilding the public confidence in the RCMP, can you give a couple of very specific examples of what you would be doing on that—not general ones about having everybody do their job well, etc.?

[Commr William Elliott]

I wish there was a simple answer about how to rebuild the public's confidence in the RCMP. I certainly think we need to be more proactive with respect to our communications. I think we need to be more upfront with respect to acknowledging the problems we have. I note that the media have recently, albeit on a limited number of occasions, suggested that they are beginning to see that we are more forthcoming with respect to information. There was an unfortunate incident in the lower mainland recently where we proactively released information about an individual who was apprehended by members of the RCMP. He was innocent of any wrongdoing; it was a case of mistaken identity, and we came forward and released that information to the media. I think actually it wasn't the day that this incident happened; it was the next day. This is certainly an example of that.

I've also not just been meeting with members and employees of the RCMP, but, as I've indicated, with our contract partners and many others. Unfortunately, the task force report sets out a litany of issues that we need to address. Again, there are recommendations directed at the RCMP and recommendations directed to the government and others, but the ones within our authorities we are all addressing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to come back later on this.

We're now going to go to the other side. Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here. I think I'd like to start off by saying that I want to thank you for taking on this task. It's never an easy one, and as you already know, it's like being the president of General Motors; you're now responsible every time a tire goes flat, along with running the large organization that it is.

In terms of the position, the biggest question seemed to be about political interference, and I think it's an issue that you already knew before you got there, but it's one that's of most import, and I would trust that the lack of political interference is what you need to do your job. I'm wondering if you can tell us if that's the case, or if I'm dead wrong, then say so.

And perhaps partly mentioning what my colleague from the NDP said, I would suggest to you, sir, that if all of your people do a good job, the public's confidence will go up, along with seeing that there is a change. Part of this relates to what we've read and heard, that there is a problem in recruiting. I'm wondering if that is improving, the ability to recruit. It always seems to me it's easier to recruit when there's good news out there, and if that in fact is happening, could you tell us about it?

[Commr William Elliott]

Okay. Thank you.

With respect to the independence of the police, certainly I feel very strongly that this is a fundamental principle of a democratic society, and I said that seven months ago today, when it was announced I was being appointed commissioner. Certainly there have been no incidents over the last seven months, or six months and a bit, since I actually took office, in both cases, where I have been concerned with anyone attempting to unduly influence me or the RCMP.

With respect to your indication that when we all do a good job, trust in the RCMP will go up, I believe that's certainly true and a very important element. Unfortunately, the reality is we're an organization of some 28,000 employees. Some of them will make mistakes. No doubt many mistakes have been made over the time that I have been commissioner. I think when we make mistakes, we have to be honest about it and we have to address them. Some of that has to do with how we communicate, and it also has to do with how we deal with things like workplace disclosure and discipline, which are certainly areas that need improvement.

With respect to recruiting, I guess there's good news and bad news. We are actually having people apply to the RCMP in record numbers. We are accepting people into the RCMP, sending them to training in Regina and having them graduate in record numbers. That is in large part because we are investing a lot of time and effort in recruiting. During this past year, 2007, I think we sent just over 1,500 cadets to Depot, and not that long ago, half that number would have been a good year.

But we are in fact not keeping pace with our requirements. We have lots of people retiring, and we have been asked by provinces and territories and municipalities to increase our numbers. We have also been given additional responsibilities, particularly in the post-9/11 environment. We would actually like to have several hundred more a year, and that is a real priority for us, to bring those numbers up even further.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You still have a couple of minutes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

With respect to that, obviously what you're indicating is there is the ability to recruit, and there have been some enhancements with the training facility. Does that allow for the additional folks to get through the process in a timely fashion?

[Commr William Elliott]

Yes. The government has provided us with significant funding to expand our capacity at Depot, and we are actually in the position that we have the capability. We have both the physical facilities and the capacity with respect to instructors to put several hundred more candidates through a year. We are not actually meeting our recruiting targets, so we think we need to find new and imaginative ways to increase our recruiting and also to reduce the time within which we process applications.

There is great competition out there. While I was in British Columbia in the last couple of weeks, I met with the newly appointed chief of the Vancouver city police. They are actually bringing forward an incentive program on a pilot basis, I understand, initially for 90 days, in which they're telling their own employees that if they recruit someone to join the Vancouver police, the police department will give them a week's leave. It's tough out there, and there are lots of people competing for the same limited supply of individuals. There are demographic issues, obviously, and some forces are a lot more flexible than we have been to date with respect to the kinds of incentives they're willing to put into practice.

One other thing I will mention, and the task force report talks about this, is that we don't pay our cadets when they are in training. Many other police services do. We'd like to find a way to level that playing field as well. We think that would help.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Do you currently accept lateral entry into the organization?

[Commr William Elliott]

Yes, we do, but I agree with the task force that we should do more of that.

I think there are some current practices that are probably discouraging lateral entrants. I think our general practice is if someone who's a corporal or a sergeant in another force wants to come to the RCMP, we start them as a constable. I'm not sure that in today's marketplace that is a sustainable or wise practice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now go to our five-minute round. Mr. Cullen, you're next.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Mr. Elliott.

I know we had some interaction when we were the government, on border issues, when you were the national security adviser to the Prime Minister. That was very much a staff/policy sort of role, and this is very much a line management job, although you have brought in a number two who's an experienced RCMP officer to handle some of the operational decisions.

I'm wondering, how do you see your role? Is it as an interim chairman and CEO, with the operating part of it delegated to your number two? Do you see your role as passing on the torch once you've set the RCMP in the direction that you and the government would like to see it embark on?

How have the RCMP officers responded to date to a civilian commissioner? I know there was a lot of chatter about how that would work.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you.

The questions touch on a number of things. I don't see myself as being appointed for a very short period of time or to try to bring about quick fixes. I intend to be the commissioner of the RCMP for a good long while.

I have asked Deputy Commissioner Bill Sweeney to come to Ottawa. We did that initially, saying it would be for eight months, and we have decided to make it an ongoing role. Certainly the fact that I don't have a background or training as a police officer I think means that I don't have some of the experience and skill sets of the 20 men and one woman who preceded me, but I like to believe that I bring other experience that is helpful in my role and to the force.

With respect to my reception, I am very encouraged by the reception I have received. At the beginning, I think you are right, there was some expression of disappointment that someone from inside had not been appointed. But I would say that right from the outset the response has been quite positive. I have often cited communication that went something like, “Even though I was disappointed”--actually, the language was stronger than that: “Even though I thought your appointment was a slap in the face to me as a long-serving member of the RCMP, and an insult to the organization, that decision is behind us and we're here to support you. Welcome to the RCMP.” I felt that was a pretty encouraging message. Since then, the response I get is considerably more positive than that. In fact, I would say nobody has raised this issue with me for the last three months.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Good, and good luck to you with that.

I have two questions, one relating to recruitment and one relating to the morale in the RCMP generally. How do you find that? It sounds like there's a lot of interest in joining the RCMP. I know during our mandate, one of the issues constraining more recruitment was capacity issues at Depot in Regina. Is that infrastructure now in place? Is it coming into play? Is that a constraint?

I had another question relating to wiretapping techniques. I know there was some initiative around modernizing investigative techniques; in other words, to provide the same vehicles that you have today with respect to land line telephones to some of the technologies that of course the terrorists and criminals are using, i.e. cellphones and the Internet. Is that constraining your law enforcement efforts and activities to counter terrorism, the fact that you cannot sometimes use the techniques that you need to use because it is constrained by legislation?

[Commr William Elliott]

Mr. Chair, with respect to capacity at our training facility at Depot, there are still a number of building projects ongoing, but as I indicated in response to an earlier answer, we have expanded facilities that are able to take on larger numbers of recruits.

I was at Depot in Regina a couple of months or so ago. I opened a new 25-metre range, and we turned the sod.... I guess it was more than a couple of months ago, because the snow hadn't flown in Saskatchewan yet. We turned the sod on a new mess hall. We have put in place temporary accommodations for an expanded number of cadets; those are a sort of trailer. So building is ongoing, but we have already expanded our capacity.

I might also indicate that we have also expanded capacity with respect to our ability to provide diverse training to cadets. We do a lot of scenario-based training. A cadet, in the course of 24 weeks, will live through and work through over 100 scenarios. We've increased our physical infrastructure as well to enhance that kind of training.

On the matter of what you refer to as investigative techniques, I would say that it continues to be an impediment that many of the modern means of communication are either not interceptible or are difficult to intercept. We'll apply to a judge, get a warrant, and then we'll go to a service provider and find that there's no easy way for us to actually carry out the investigation that's been authorized by the court.

We are certainly supportive of legislative amendments that would see suppliers, when they're making changes to their equipment, provide for the ability to intercept when it is authorized.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll now go to the Bloc Québécois. Who's going to be asking questions?

Ms. Thaï Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Elliott, for appearing before us.

Between 1994 and 1997, undercover agent Blundell was accused of sexual assault against four of his colleagues of the feminine gender. These assaults, which ranged from touching to complete intercourse, had taken place within the framework of police operations in Calgary. These incidents gave rise to several disciplinary procedures in court. The case is now closed. This is not what I want to speak to you about.

After these procedures, the commissioner asked Chief Superintendent Mr. Atkins, accompanied by Sergeant Harmes, Ms. Carole Piette and Mr. Emond Harnden, to carry out an administrative review of the disciplinary measures involving Sergeant Blundell. The group produced a lengthy 114-page report containing 11 recommendations.

Could you tell me what concrete measures have been implemented after these recommendations?

[Commr William Elliott]

I regret to say, Mr. Chair, I'm not in a position to provide a response to that question. I can, if it would be helpful, undertake to provide you with a response.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Could you send us the details of these measures?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Excuse me just a minute.

Would you be prepared, sir, to provide a written response in regard to that to the committee?

[Commr William Elliott]

Yes, I would certainly be prepared to do that.

I can send you some information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

It can go to the clerk.

Go ahead, Ms. Thaï Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Could you send us the details of the measures taken following each one of these recommendations?

Could you also send us your plan regarding priorities?

[Commr William Elliott]

As I indicated earlier, I'd be happy to provide a written response to the honourable member's question.

With respect to a priorities plan

If I understood the translation correctly,

there is a report on plans and priorities from the RCMP that will be tabled by the Minister of Public Safety. I'm not exactly sure on the timing of that report, but it is an annual report.

With respect to other priorities, when I hear the honourable member's question, what comes to mind, I guess, are our intentions with respect to change management. As I indicated in my opening remarks, we have tasked the assistant commissioner--who's been asked to head up this change management team we're establishing--to develop an action plan.

I'm not exactly sure what the timeframe would be for that plan, so if that's what the honourable member is looking for, we'd be happy to provide you with information on that in due course. But it will take some time for us to develop that plan.