Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Would I be wrong in suggesting that if you asked for them, the chief would also provide you with those same general reports as we're talking about with the taser?
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Staff Sergeant, I think you indicated you had some documentation concerning accountability and a training précis.
S/Supt Michael Federico
Yes. I didn't bring them with me, but we have the protocols, the procedures, and samples of the report. There's a training syllabus that outlines the training to be received by each officer who is issued a weapon.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I'm just wondering if they could be provided to our researchers for their information. Would the department provide them?
S/Supt Michael Federico
If the service gets a request.... I'm not at liberty to automatically disclose, but we routinely entertain requests like that. I don't see any reason why not.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay.
I think you indicated in answer to a question that the taser has been used to save lives, or it has that potential. Just so that everybody understands, we're not just talking about the lives of police officers and we're not just talking about the lives of other innocent people; we're also talking about the lives of the individuals who are tasered.
S/Supt Michael Federico
Yes, absolutely. In some cases, the choice between force options might have resulted in the use of deadly force--the choice of the firearm--had the taser not been available.
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
If I may add to that, that is one of the dilemmas we are faced with, because there are a couple of jury recommendations from coroners' inquests--for example, the recently concluded case of Otto Vass and then the case of another gentleman, Christopher-Reid. In both cases the jury wanted to know why tasers were not available, because chances are that if the taser had been available, these men would be alive.
But in order for that to happen, we would have had to agree to or approve the deployment of tasers to our front-line officers. In one case, the officers at the scene called for the emergency task force whose members are authorized to use tasers, but they were occupied elsewhere and there was a delay of 15 to 20 minutes. We had not yet approved the deployment of tasers to our supervisors, so nobody could come. And in that situation the individual died.
So it's a dilemma for the board that on the one hand the board does not want to allow access to tasers by every front-line officer. That is not our policy right now. We have restricted it to emergency task force and front-line supervisors. At the same time, the juries are saying there are circumstances where you might have saved lives.
The debate around the pros and cons of that is very much a debate for us.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
My thinking is that we issue a handgun to every police officer, so you're caught in that grey area. I'm sure you're hearing from some families that if the police officer had had a taser, it might have saved a life.
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
I am one of the members of the board who was strongly opposed to allowing tasers in the Toronto Police Service when the debates first began. That was based on my research into the medical studies that had been done.
There seemed to be a number of unresolved questions. There still are some questions in terms of the impact of tasers on people with certain medical conditions, and I don't believe there is enough conclusive research in those areas yet.
For example, a pregnant woman.... When Tom Smith came to our public forum he said the taser would have the same effect as a sudden pregnancy and the result could be an abortion. But there is no research on that yet.
When police officers go to a scene, full information may not always be available as to the medical condition of the individual they are facing. So there are still unresolved questions.
With the firearm, the gun, there is a history of use, so we know what the consequences could be.
We are only now beginning to learn about the nature of the device. That, I think, makes us more cautious and makes us ask for more information after it is used.
That's the difference between firearms and tasers.
Conservative
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
To both of you, I appreciate your testimony and I appreciate you answering our questions.
You gave us some statistics earlier, and you said there had been no taser-related deaths. Have there been any incidents where deaths occurred within a number of days after the people were tasered, according to your reports?
S/Supt Michael Federico
There haven't been any in Toronto. There have been some nationally and internationally. Those cases were the subject of discussion and presentation, and the board considered them. In the cases we are aware of that were reviewed by Dr. Cairns of the Ontario coroner's office, the conclusion was that there was no direct evidence that the deaths were the result of the taser.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
Is there recertification every year of the officers in your board?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Yes. I'm glad you asked me that because I wanted to elaborate slightly on the training. Before a device is issued, there is a full eight hours of training, emphasizing policy, procedure, and judgment. Then there is the skill and technical knowledge. All of that is tested in both a practical exercise and a written format. Then every 12 months a person has to recertify on that use-of-force device.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
It's every three years with the RCMP, as opposed to your every twelve months. I'm pleased to hear that.
In your training do you either encourage or require someone to be tasered themselves?
S/Supt Michael Federico
It's not mandatory. We've demonstrated that if properly used it can be effective, and we've demonstrated that on our own staff, with their compliance.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
When you demonstrate that do you use the probe, or do you tape the electrical current to someone's back?
S/Supt Michael Federico
We've actually done both. It makes me smile why anybody would want to volunteer.
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
It reminds me of a conversation I had with our chief one day. He said that he does not recommend that, because he doesn't have to be shot by a gun to know what the effect of the gun will be.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
I've heard that line before. Unfortunately, the only training I've seen where people are tasered has it taped to the back as opposed to a probe going in. So I'm surprised that you say people are being probed.
S/Supt Michael Federico
It's with their full, informed consent. The device has been demonstrated to do two things. It lets the members know about its effectiveness and it imparts to the member that this is not some trifling toy of convenience. This is a very serious device to be used only in more serious circumstances.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
On the use of tasers, is there repeated application of the current or just one?
