Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
I'm not doubting your word. It's quite amazing and not necessarily consistent with other parts and places in the country. I'm not questioning what you said.
I'd like to actually move on to a different question, if I might.
Staff Superintendent, you said they are immediately seen by medical personnel. Can you describe what “immediately” means? Does that mean the medical personnel are there when it is discharged or that the person is transferred? How does that occur?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Thank you.
Typically after the discharge we will call the ambulance to the scene, if we haven't been able to bring the ambulance in advance. In some circumstances, and I'll use this word advisedly, we've been lucky enough to have a situation that's somewhat “contained”. We've been able to bring the medical support in advance of any attempt to make contact with the individual. You can think of hostage or barricaded-suspect situations. The tasers have been deployed under those circumstances. But if it's an unanticipated event in the community where the taser has been deployed, the situation is contained at the scene and we'll bring an ambulance to the scene.
We're fortunate in Toronto that the ambulance service is prompt and well equipped.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Yes, it's an urban area. I understand that, but that's not the same as what might happen in a small community.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
I'm more than aware of that, thank you.
In the information that is gathered about an incident, is there ever a narrative gathered from other people who are present when the incident occurs, other than the officer or the officer's partner?
S/Supt Michael Federico
In Ontario, if the use of any force results in a serious injury, an independent civilian agency conducts the investigation. That's the special investigations unit—you may have heard of that—and it will conduct a reasonably comprehensive investigation that would include speaking to a number of bystanders. If the circumstances are that the taser, in this case, was deployed and the injuries were no more than what we anticipated--a puncture of the probes or a mark because of the dry stun--a police officer has to report, on a proper form, the use of force. It's unlikely we would launch into as big an investigation as there might be if there were serious injury. However, obviously the input of the person who was the subject is captured. We have that information.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Can I just finish off that question, because it was just a tail end to this one? Thank you.
If it's a later inquiry and you had a pair of officers on the site, how would people know later who the bystanders were? How would you gather that information? Are other officers or staff support called to the site to gather the names and contacts of those people?
S/Supt Michael Federico
It might very well be. For example, if the individual was charged criminally as a result of some behaviour and the use of force was simply to gain control, there's a whole investigation that surrounds the event; there would be witnesses to that.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
I have 15 seconds. Well, in that case I will think carefully about my next question and I will gracefully give up seven seconds to whoever is next.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Okay, you have one second left. Time's up.
We'll go to Mr. MacKenzie, from the government side.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you to both individuals for being here. I think you've brought some light to a subject that is a little different from what we've heard in the past, simply because it's from a board chair and a staff superintendent.
We've focused purely on tasers. Would you tell us what the process is when somebody uses a baton or some other type of force, maybe oleoresin capsicum spray? Do you go through the same process in the use-of-force reports and reviews?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Essentially it is. Any application of use of force in Toronto must be reported. There are specific forms that capture the type of information both the service and the board would be concerned about. It's incidental that we might be using the taser.
The report gets filed because a use of force occurred, which could be just simply the laying on of the hands, a wrestling match, the application of some empty-handed technique. If we use any of the devices--pepper spray, the baton, tasers--a report gets submitted.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Will someone who is pepper sprayed receive treatment afterwards?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Yes, right after the application of pepper spray we are required to provide water to rinse the eyes. Emergency services will respond. It is not unlike the situation with taser use; we try to provide immediate medical assessment and relief if necessary.
February 27th, 2008 / 4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
When the baton has been used, are we likely or not likely to see some injury?
S/Supt Michael Federico
When a baton is used you are likely to see some injury. The baton can be used in a passive restraining manner, but if it's used as a striking instrument to gain control using pain compliance and force, inevitably there will be injuries. If there are injuries, the person is taken to the hospital after the arrest is made.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
In Ontario, use-of-force reporting has been mandated for some number of years by the Ontario police services. Is it a fairly standard form used across the province?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Yes. In fact, the use-of-force form is a provincial form, and that's the form all police services have to use.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Is it used whenever there's use of force as we've just discussed here?
S/Supt Michael Federico
Right. I would just add that in the case of a firearm and in the case of a taser, simply the demonstration of the weapon requires a use-of-force report, even if it wasn't applied. If I draw my firearm and point it at somebody, I am required to submit a report. If I draw the taser to get somebody's attention, I have to file a report, even though I actually didn't use the device.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Board Chair, do you see those same annual reports from the chief of police, no matter whether it's a taser, a baton, or a firearm?
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
As a matter of fact, no. The only report we get is a report on the use of tasers, because we specifically asked for that one. It was simply because of the nature of the debate that took place and the recognition of the public concern around the taser. We haven't historically asked for reports on the other use-of-force devices.