Evidence of meeting #19 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was board.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
But they'll all be added up when we say we used the taser x number of times.
Conservative
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Please excuse my tardiness. I really had another commitment and I was not able to get away sooner.
From your explanations of Taser use by the Toronto police, I gather that your protocol is different from the RCMP's. Is that correct?
S/Supt Michael Federico
There are some variations in the RCMP's protocol, depending on the details and the assignment that the RCMP is required to undertake, and that may dictate a different protocol.
For example, I understand—
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Since you recognize that there are differences, I would like to focus on one of them that seems to me to be very important, and to read you this:
Current RCMP policy classifies the Conducted Energy Weapon as an “intermediate” device placing it in the same category as oleoresin capsicum spray. This classification permits use of the weapon for those situations where an individual is exhibiting behaviours that are deemed “resistant”, and not just “combative” or posing a risk of “death or grievous bodily harm” to the officer, themselves or the general public.
It was my understanding that you were more in the “combative” category.
S/Supt Michael Federico
The term that we rely on to characterize the time when the taser can be used is the term “assaultive”. “Assaultive” is derived from the Criminal Code definition, where the person applies force intentionally without the permission, or threatens to do so and has the ability, the capability.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I do not know how the word is translated, but it seems to correspond to the word “combatif” which unfortunately is not the one used in French in the Criminal Code or in the report I read.
S/Supt Michael Federico
I have to say, I haven't seen the RCMP use the term “combative”. I think that might be a colloquial term. The term the police services have agreed to use is the term “assaultive”.
A person who threatens assault may not actually be physically carrying out an assault, but they've adopted a posture or they've somehow signalled an intent to assault. That would constitute a threat, and that may very well justify the use of force—in this case, the use of a taser. That's different from somebody who's just standing there and not following orders.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
You know, I would have expected the proper words to be used in a report from the person investigating the RCMP Commissioner. But it is still the case that a distinction is made between that kind of behaviour and behaviour that is just “résistant”. I do not know yet how that will be translated.
S/Supt Michael Federico
If we understand, in kind of layman's terms, resistance to be just not responding to the officer's instructions and posing no threat, in our service that would not constitute grounds to apply force. If I moved in to make an arrest and the person pulled their arm away or raised their fists or adopted a stance that indicated they were about to engage in a fight, those are assaultive characteristics, in our interpretation.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
[Editor's note: technical difficulties] difference from the RCMP that I feel is greater in your case.
How many people have complained about inappropriate Taser use?
S/Supt Michael Federico
We've had no public complaints by a person who has been the subject of the application of a taser, but I'm vaguely aware that there might be a civil suit pending.
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Do you inform people who have been tasered that they have the right to register a complaint with the Toronto Police Services Board?
S/Supt Michael Federico
After the taser has been used in the “drive stun” or the actual dart discharge, the subject is immediately seen by emergency service personnel to make sure there are no medical complications. It is the medical service personnel who actually remove the darts from the individual if they've penetrated the skin.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That is not what I was asking. I asked you if you inform people of their right to register a complaint.
S/Supt Michael Federico
If the person is expressing a desire to make a complaint, regardless of whether it's about the use of taser or not, we advise the person on how to make a complaint and that they're entitled to do so.
I want to explain a typical situation where that conversation might come up. After the individual has been assessed medically and been secured, if the individual is complaining about the conduct of a police officer, we are required by our service procedures and protocols to advise the person on how to make a public complaint.
In Ontario, a complaint can be made at any police station. The public complaint will initially be reviewed and investigated by the police, but then it is overseen by a civilian body. The Ontario Civilian Commission on Police Services reviews those public complaints.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Do you know whether people have complained publicly about Taser use by your police force but have not registered a formal complaint?
S/Supt Michael Federico
People have come to our public police services board meeting to complain about the acquisition of tasers and to express concern about the policies behind the deployment of tasers. I'm not aware of any individual, who has been the subject of taser use, who has registered a complaint against the police.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
We'll have to wrap it up.
Ms. Priddy, from the NDP, it's your turn now, if you wish.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Chair Mukherjee and Staff Superintendent Federico, thank you both for being here.
Chair Mukherjee, your good reputation precedes you, even on the west coast, where I come from.
I'm sorry, I came in a few minutes late, but I listened to you talk about investigating each time a taser is either indicated or actually used. I heard you talk about the numbers of investigations and so on.
Can I ask you two things about those investigations? One, have you found, in any of them, inappropriate use of the taser on the part of an officer? I'm not asking for circumstances or names--I don't mean that. I'm asking whether it has been seen as appropriate every single time.
S/Supt Michael Federico
The simple answer is yes, and I can tell you why we are confident that in every single case where we have deployed a taser, it has been deployed appropriately.
Chair, Toronto Police Services Board
If I may add to that, it certainly is a question that concerns the board very much. When the annual reports are provided by the chief on the use of tasers, the chief is required to describe or list each use of the taser: what the incident was, who deployed it—was it them, the task force, or some other unit—what the reason was for which the taser was deployed, and what type of deployment happened.
If we see any anomalies, or if something doesn't look like.... For example, if the taser was used and there were a number of what is called EDPs, emotionally disturbed persons, the board is bound to probe for further information on those incidents in order to understand what the circumstances were in which the taser was being used. This is done in a public meeting. We make sure all those community organizations that have appeared before the board to speak on the issue of tasers are advised, so that they are able to be there. The reports are posted ahead of time and provided to them, and they are also able to raise questions. In fact, at least once a year, if not more, we have that kind of conversation in public about the uses of tasers.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you.
What I understand both of you to say is, first, there has never been an inappropriate use, and second, there has never been an individual complaint.