Evidence of meeting #25 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was used.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
I think it's absolutely part of the question as to what the use-of-force continuum is, where you can use any particular weapon or any device.
At the earliest point, a police officer, by being there in a uniform, is the first line of defence. His second line of defence is the mere touching of someone and asking them to come along with him. Beyond that come the next steps, and you're quite right: when should they be using the taser, as opposed to, in the case of Mr. Dziekanski, if they were so worried, why would they not have used, for example, pepper spray? Those are excellent questions. Or when might the baton be used?
Those are all things that have to be considered in the context of where and when and if you're going to allow the taser to be used as a weapon, because clearly, if the police are going to use it at the level they're using it at now in the continuum of force, Canadians have a problem. I believe this committee ought to have a problem with that as well.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
Yes.
I think it's important to also add that the police, in my opinion, need far better training in non-violent methods, non-physical methods of defusing situations, basic communication skills, specifically when they're dealing with people who are in mental or medical distress. You might take a serious look at what, for example, Toronto is doing with their mobile response units, where they are sending trained medical and mental health specialists along with the police to a lot of these calls. I think that's something that could be useful across the country.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here today. This must be incredibly difficult, because every time you have to retell your story or rehear your story, it's like living it one more time. So thank you for doing that. But since you are here to share information, then I would be pleased to ask a couple of questions.
We have heard as we've travelled the country many things, which Mr. Kosteckyj has also said and which we've heard from the Bagnell family, about the importance of public oversight, not just concerning the use of tasers, but in a more general way as well. We've also heard the discussion about where a taser fits in a continuum of force, which is a very puzzling discussion, because it seems to vary, depending on where we have the discussion and who we have the discussion with.
First, if I might, Mr. Kosteckyj, I have a question for you. You called this in some ways a “benign neglect” death. I think that was the phrase you used. In my personal opinion, this death is about a much broader range of factors than only a taser. I'd also like to ask you a different kind of question, if I might.
We visited the airport. We're often moved by different things, or we learn by seeing different things. We're just different by nature in how we absorb information. I think I may have shared this with you, but I stood at the top of the escalator that Robert would have been on--because they are the same stairs that go around and around--thinking of all of the hope that he would have had as he was standing on the top of that escalator and, as that escalator went down, how much further removed that piece of hope and that dream were. For me, that was probably the most powerful part of the tour, aside from the concrete information I learned.
I'd like you to answer for me if you can, please, Mr. Kosteckyj, first, how the airport could be different. I'm talking about the CBSA and the airport part. If you could wave your pen or whatever, how would you make that different so that this could not happen again?
I have a question for the Bagnell family. When I looked at your website, you had a reference on it that all of us have been quite frustrated trying to find information about. It was about the research that can link taser deaths. I noticed that on your website, when you talked about the numbers of deaths, you cited 30 as being either somehow related or causal to the use of the taser. I'd be thrilled if you could share where you got that research. We keep asking the manufacturer of taser and others, “Can you prove any relationship?”, and everybody says, “No. Coroners' reports all say no, so we can't, no.” I'd be thrilled to have that and hear a bit about what's on your site.
Mr. Kosteckyj, I'll go to you first on the difference to an airport.
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Well, one of the biggest differences—and I think this is an issue this committee ought to be concerned with, because it does deal with public safety—is that when somebody shows up at primary customs and they go through a computer, you would think that there would be some alarm bells that go off when that person is directed to secondary customs and they don't show up. If that system isn't in place, it ought to be in place. It's conceivable that somebody's not going to show up for half an hour, or maybe an hour, but at some point, when it goes past that, why aren't some alarm bells going off and getting people to pay attention to the fact that they're missing somebody in an area where they're supposed to be accountable for everyone who's there? They don't want people wandering around in there, because presumably they pose a security risk. If that had been done, that would have ended things hours earlier.
The second thing, as I said, is that we can't, at the end of the day, ask the Canada Border Services agents to be babysitters and to help people, for lack of a better term, who are lost, but they have to have a place to turn them over to. You have this airport, this beautiful structure, probably one of the most beautiful airports I've ever been in, but it's dysfunctional. There's no place, and there's no one there to help that lost traveller.
Now you have the Olympics coming here.
4:30 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
I'm from Vancouver, which is part of why I'm asking this question. We're about to have hundreds and thousands of people coming.
4:30 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Exactly. And they have to have a place to be able to be turned over to and dealt with, and the airport authority ought to be charged with that job. It's one of its jobs: moving traffic, directing people to where they might want to go, and having an opportunity to do that. And in my submission, if those two things had happened, these events wouldn't have taken place and the discussion about the taser would be incidental.
Getting back to Mr. Dziekanski for a second, and I think this is very important in his case, the one thing that we do know is that alcohol and drugs were not factors in his death. Neither one of those two things was present, so excited delirium is off the table as far as a possible explanation in that particular case. I just make that point.
4:35 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
I hope I get your questions right. The studies and research that you refer to, are you wondering...? Sorry, what is it?
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Well, when I went to your website, I think it said there were 30 deaths that could be linked to tasers, and when we've asked for research, we've been told there isn't any research that says deaths can be linked to tasers. Not that I'm necessarily concluding that's the case, I'm just anxious to have the information you have.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Yes.
Could you refer us to it in some way, send it to us, whatever, tell us where you got it? I ask this because most of what we've been able to gather is around how it affects pigs, dogs, and whoever else, but no reports say it really has affected the death of the person.
4:35 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
I have a coroner's report from a case where the taser was deemed to have caused the death. I will look into whether or not I can share that with you. I'd be happy to share any of the documentation I have, and I have reams and reams of it, as you can imagine.
That was the original intent of my website. When I originally started the website it was because I was running out of room for paper, and I wanted a place online where I could start to store some of what I knew and what I had—
4:35 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
—rather than having to print everything all the time. Most of what I have on there I've learned through web searches and news reports. I do taser web searches daily, every day. A day doesn't go by when I don't.
I also receive a lot of information from people. There's a network of people across North America who are quite interested in this issue, and they send me documentation.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Well, if you could. I don't want to hold up the committee, but if you have an ability to share that and refer that, that would be really helpful for us, because some of us have been pretty frustrated, thinking there must be something causal but not being able to find anything that said that.
4:35 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
I will try to make that happen. I'd be happy to share anything I have.
4:35 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
That would be very helpful. Thank you so much.
Thank you, to both of you.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Roy Cullen
Thank you very much.
Mr. Ménard was sorry to have to leave, but he had to take part in a debate on the bill under consideration in the House.
With that, I'll go to Mr. MacKenzie, please.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Chair.
To the panel, I offer our condolences to you and our sympathies for what you're going through. I do appreciate the fact that you're here. I know that the Bagnell family has been through an inquest and perhaps some other legal things, and I understand that the same will occur. So from my side here, our condolences to you and our sympathy with you, and I know and appreciate what you're going through.
4:35 p.m.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
One small question with respect to research. One of the things you get into is the ethics of doing human research with such a device that obviously is very painful and can have effects on different people in different ways. In your studies, Ms. Gillman, could you just go over what your thoughts are about how research should be done? The research we've been told about doesn't seem complete. That's the kindest way to say it. But I'd just like your thoughts, because if you've spent that much time on this subject, you would know, I think, a bit more than we do.
4:35 p.m.
Sister of Robert Bagnell, As an Individual
Yes, I think that testing these weapons on human beings would be completely unethical, and I can't imagine who would ever put their hand up to have those tested on them.
I don't think the science behind the taser is rocket science. It is for me, because that's not at all my thing. But there are people, and I hear from them all the time, who seem to have a base understanding of what's going on here.
I don't know if you've ever been to the website excited-delirium.com. Whoever owns that site.... Well, I recommend that you go there.