Public Safety Committee on April 28th, 2008

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Then you pepper-spray them. In the literature I've read with regard to pepper spray--and in the actual use of it--there are examples of some persons on whom pepper spray really doesn't work that well, especially in psychiatric cases.

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

Excited delirium is one circumstance where the pepper spray can almost make it worse.

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

Because of the insensitivity to pain of the person in excited delirium, neither the pepper spray nor painful techniques will generally work. I would go so far as to say that if the taser were used to inflict pain, it probably would not be effective.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

But if its aim is to incapacitate...?

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

To produce neuromuscular incapacitation. It simply produces a state where briefly the person can't move, and that allows control to be gained.

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

You should also realize that police do report cases of excited delirium where the taser itself does not have that much effect--that they can discern.

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

Like in two of the cases in Ontario that were described earlier. In both cases the taser failed to incapacitate the individual, and they were ultimately shot.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

How do you educate a law enforcement officer to recognize all of those instances in a very few seconds where they have to make decisions? We all sit back in our comfortable chairs and try to find the right answer. Would you say that it is appropriate only under the best circumstances? Even in an emergency room, where you have the best medical training, you have to think fast in order to make the right decision at the right time.

I'm going to ask each of you this simple question. If you could wave your magic wand today, would you want police officers to have that tool, the taser, in their possession, provided you had the right people, the right training, and the right rules?

Dr. Dowling and Dr. McCallum.

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

I would say yes, and again, with all the provisos that you put forward--recognizing the risks and requiring careful accounting of the use of the taser in the right circumstances. And as I say, it's very far down that use of force continuum. In my view, it should never be used in a circumstance where somebody is fleeing. It should be used to protect life, with the goal of getting the person in excited delirium to treatment.

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

I would agree.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's nobody on the Liberal side.

To the Bloc, Monsieur Ménard, do you have any more questions?

Ms. Nash, you indicated you have a brief question.

Oh, Mr. Ménard has changed his mind.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I would like to ask a question out of curiosity. You gave us two examples earlier. In the first, the taser was applied for three minutes. In the second, seven or eight tasers were applied simultaneously. I do not think you told us whether these people died. My impression is that they lived through that. Can you tell us that please?

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

In one of the Alberta cases in which a taser was used, which we believe was a death due to excited delirium, he received three five-second shocks at the scene and was then transported in an ambulance to an emergency room. They then had to transfer him from the ambulance stretcher to a hospital examination table, and doing that required five additional five-second shocks. I don't know the timing of them or whether there were several seconds between each. I honestly don't know that.

However, the other case I mentioned to you, the one from the United States, I believe took place in a prison. My understanding of that case, as it was presented to me at the conference, was that someone was basically hanging on to the trigger or the discharge button of the taser continuously. It goes for five seconds, and then it goes off, and then it can go right away again. It is my understanding that the person was literally hanging on to that for three minutes or so. It was almost as close as you can get to continuous discharge, which I can't think anyone would think appropriate.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Yes, but the question is, did the people die?

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

Yes, both of them did. That person in prison died, and the person in the Alberta case accounted for one of the deaths that we have had. But interestingly enough, the person in the Alberta case died after the administration of a chemical restraint—drugs given by doctors--so you had a whole constellation of things. This patient was also hobbled, so you had hobbling, taser, chemical restraints, and then his death.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Everybody on this side is done? Thank you.

Ms. Nash, you are batting cleanup.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Dowling, you confirmed earlier that Taser International can be quite aggressive in challenging those who point fingers at the taser. You confirm that you've never felt the need to identify the taser as a cause of death. But do you think that because Taser International takes such aggressive legal action against coroners--and I'm reflecting on what has been reported in the media--this could create some reluctance among some coroners to identify the taser as a cause of death if they felt so inclined to do that?

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

I can't speak for all coroners and medical examiners, but it is our job, as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure Andrew would agree that if we think this is the cause of death, it is our job to put it there.

I'm fortunate enough to work in Alberta justice, which is full of lawyers who are there to defend me if in giving that opinion I undergo civil litigation. Honesty and truthfulness have to be the bottom line with us. If I feel there's enough evidence to say that this is the cause of death, I have to put it there. That's my job.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Why do you think Taser is doing this? If the media reports are true, why do you think they are taking legal action against coroners?

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

I honestly don't know.

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

Can I add something? I think in Canada we are fortunate in that we enjoy a coroner or medical examiner system. As you know, there is a variety of systems across the country, but all of them have one thing in common, and that is that they are governmental; they are at either the territorial or the provincial government level. The importance of that is that it is in contrast to the United States, where coroners are often lay coroners who may or may not have any training, and who--

[Dr. Graeme Dowling]

Or they're elected.

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

And they are elected. I was just going to say that. They often are part-time, and they are in an elected position, so they may be more vulnerable to that sort of litigation.

I think in Canada there would be much more resiliency about dealing with that, because I couldn't agree more that our job is to fearlessly assign the cause and manner of death as whatever we determine it to be, objectively.

[Peggy Nash, NDP, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

You've never heard of anyone here being pressured or threatened by Taser?

[Dr. Andrew McCallum]

I'm unaware of any.