Evidence of meeting #29 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was products.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
We have gone on record complaining to the different governing agencies of all levels for the past eight years.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON
Six Nations has a police force. To what extent, if any, has the local police force been able to curb the illegal activity?
4:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
That's a very good question and I'm glad you posed it.
The Six Nations police force never signed on to do taxation enforcement. Any time there are situations where there are other things that have been mentioned at this meeting today, they have a strong.... I also know that's a position of the Akwesasne police department too. If they get inquiries over drugs, guns, other forms of extortion, criminal activities, they do help in those investigations. But to come to this committee and have you feel that all first nations people on first nations territories will accept unlawfulness, that would be a very poor perception of our people. They're very interested in handling the criminal element in our communities. We just have some issues over taxation.
4:40 p.m.
Liberal
Lloyd St. Amand Liberal Brant, ON
If I may, then, I think I just have a minute left....
Let's say tomorrow any one of you is named Minister of Public Safety. You deal with a difficult issue--an illegal supply, a market that's out of control, unlicensed manufacturers, social problems mounting. What do you see as the immediate thing you can do to stem this problem?
4:40 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
I believe you definitely have to look into the raw materials coming to manufacture these tobacco products, allowing all manufacturers that participate in any way to give total transparency to their activities.
4:40 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Imperial Tobacco Canada Limited
I would suggest that the key priority would be to call a national task force, given the wide number of areas that are impacted by illicit trade and the different enforcement actions that need to be taken, at the provincial as well as federal level. I think the appointment of a senior government official to chair a task force, bringing together collectively the government forces to deal with this problem, would be a pretty good place to start.
4:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
We'll go over to the Bloc Quebecois now.
Ms. Thi Lac, please.
4:40 p.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Good day and thank you for coming here this morning to testify before the committee.
I also want to thank Mr. Montour for acknowledging his lack of consideration in failing to have his documents for us in French. However, I do appreciate that they will be translated and made available to us.
According to the chart on page 4 of Imperial Tobacco's submission, the overall number of people who smoke is down slightly. My generation was bombarded with ads designed to educate the public on the dangers of smoking. Cigarettes could not be sold to anyone under 18 years of age. My generation learned that you could not buy tobacco products if you were underage. Paradoxically, however, since 1976, while the number of adult smokers is down slightly, there are more young people... Statistics do not show a decline in the number of young smokers, even though my generation and the generations after me were targeted by public awareness campaigns. The illegal tobacco trade likely targets young people, because they are not old enough to walk into a store and legally purchase tobacco products. I realize full well that by mounting a strong campaign to fight contraband products, we will also be educating young people and maybe even stopping some of them from getting hooked on cigarettes.
My first question follows up on something Mr. St. Amand said.
Mr. Montour, you talked about raw materials. Could you explain to me exactly what you meant by “raw materials” in your recommendation to fight tobacco contraband?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
As we pointed out in our presentation, you'll see the raw materials there are acetate tow, which goes in the filter, cigarette paper--and it is for the use of tobacco products. A lot of people may argue it has multiple uses; not that I'm aware of. I still think we can define which uses these products are being used for. I think the acetate tow filter, the cigarette paper, the tipping paper that goes around the outside of the tobacco product are very good starts.
On the tobacco itself, the more we highlight the activities where the tobacco is getting to these factories, I think it will stop it.
In addition to that, the tear tape that goes around the outside of the product is brand-specific; it is made for tobacco.
That is part of my belief and strategy that can be done immediately. If we start trying to get into negotiating, are we going to negotiate tax treaties with different first nations territories, and are we going to...? That could be a very time-consuming and dragged-out procedure.
I agree with you, if there's anybody who's stigmatized by the tobacco industry, that tobacco products are reaching young people, somehow it always seems to get blamed on first nations people. As soon as we can identify that it's a whole industry problem--it's not just for first nations retailers--the better we are at stopping it from getting it into the hands of young people.
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Imperial Tobacco Canada Limited
In answer to the question concerning youth smoking, we don't have market research information on youth. We don't track that, but the government statistics do. There is a survey conducted by the federal government.
The long-term decline in the adult population that smokes has been going on since the 1970s. It runs at about 2% or 3% a year in terms of the decline.
The same trend is also seen in the government figures on youth. However, I totally agree with the concerns you raise. When kids have access to tobacco products outside the normal retail network, where the retailers themselves have their own programs and training to ensure that their staff don't sell to kids, but clearly the networks that are distributing illegal tobacco products are not concerned about asking for proof of age, there is that risk. And we know for a fact that the controls that exist to prevent kids from getting access to tobacco products are being bypassed by the illegal market.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much.
We'll now go over to the government side again—Mr. Norlock, please.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
This question is for you, Mr. Montour.
Just before I hit the major part of my question, I want to go back to the material. In the simplest of terms, all the things that go into the manufacture of cigarettes—the filter, the papers, those other items—are all specific to the tobacco industry. They're not used for any other purpose, including the filters, as far as you're concerned. That's absolute, as far as you're concerned, or relatively so.
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
Certainly the ones designated for it. They could say, “Oh, paper is used in writing and everything else”, but not the cigarette paper.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
We're talking about cigarette papers, which are product-specific. People don't use cigarette paper to write on, or do they?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
I believe they only use them for tobacco manufacturing.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Right.
How about the tubes? I've seen that you can buy tubes. Are they specific?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
Yes, you can buy tubes, but once there seems to be some form of government regulation, you'll have transparency; you'll know how much tube makers use to make those tubes.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Do manufacturers make their own tubes? Do you make your own tubes?
4:45 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
No, sir, we don't make tubes.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
4:45 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Imperial Tobacco Canada Limited
We don't make tubes. We do sell them from others who make them, but tubes are not used in the manufacture of cigarettes. They're used by consumers who buy loose tobacco, fine cut, and assemble their own cigarettes. In the manufacturing plants, the cigarettes are made directly from the filter, the tobacco, the cigarette paper, and the cork tipping, which is used to hold it all together.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Montour, the RCMP estimates that there are a certain number of young people, especially in the aboriginal community, who are being exploited by organized crime in terms of contraband tobacco and that this activity may be paving the way for their involvement in other criminal activity.
Have you seen evidence of this youth crime on reserves, from your personal perspective, and has it increased proportionately in response to the contraband trade?
4:50 p.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Grand River Enterprises
I think it's best for the RCMP to comment in their own reports and what they believe, because I would never want to be in a position of contradicting what I believe is a very efficient government agency.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
I'm not asking you to contradict it. I'm just asking for your personal perspective, based on what you've seen from the RCMP reports and from your own experience.