Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was situation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Order. We're now in public.
This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting 31. We are dealing with the motions from Monsieur Ménard.
The introduction of that motion will not be on the record, but I think the committee is well versed with the issue now. There has been some discussion here about which motion to bring forward.
Do we just want to continue with this motion?
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
I know.
So we'll just continue with this. I have a speakers list--Ms. Priddy, Mr. MacKenzie, and then we'll take it from there.
Ms. Priddy, please.
4:15 p.m.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I wondered if Mr. Ménard could help me understand how this would also relate, or could also relate, to what I actually thought he was getting at when he first raised it--I was not aware of the newspaper story--which is parents who “kidnap”, if you will. Sorry; that's a harsh word. We've seen a number of stories recently of people who are not the custodial parent taking their child out of country. Obviously they don't have the permission of the other parent. Is that an entirely separate issue, in your mind, from this one?
I mean, when I take my grandson out of the country, I take a letter of consent with me, from his parents, notarized, saying I have permission to do that. I don't know whether those two are very separate.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In my opinion, that's different. The problem you are referring to has already been solved. What is ridiculous is that that problem is resolved, but that the problem involving a child who has not received authorization to travel from either parent is not.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I understand Mr. Ménard's interest in this, and it's perfectly legitimate in my mind. The problem is that I think we're dealing with one incident that we know of. We're dealing with airports alone, and you'd be dealing with airports across Canada. We're making a very different situation for the aeronautics industry, first off, to determine the age of somebody when they buy a ticket. I have no idea how this person bought their ticket, whether they bought it on a parent's credit card or their own credit card. And how would anybody know how old they were when they bought that if they bought it over the Internet or by telephone? It makes it all very difficult.
I well understand exactly what you're saying, and it relates to some of the legislation we've brought in to try to stop predators from dealing with young people. My understanding from the article is that this person was 15. She could look 18; I don't know whether that's the case, or whether she looks 13. But I think we'd be making a standard for how the aeronautics industry deals with people that is different from the way it would be for land border crossings, or even for buses that cross the border across this country.
I don't know that it's a huge issue. This is the only one that I'm aware of. At the same time, I'd be willing to bet that there are others; we just haven't heard of them. But I think we'd be putting a big onus on the air industry for this kind of situation, and I'm not sure that it's a practical solution. I don't know what you would do with land border crossings, or somebody who could, perhaps, get on a ship if they had a ticket.
I just think it's the kind of thing where parents obviously have concerns and need to deal with their children. I don't know whether the parents were home or away when all this happened, but it does make it rather difficult for a parent. How do they stop a 15-year-old in Ontario? My guess is that a lot of these 15-year-olds could go, and the Children's Aid Society that deals with children would have some difficulty in forcing them back home.
So I'm not sure that it's that easy when you look at it. I also have your copy of the parliamentary research report where they talk about 14-year-olds in Quebec having the right to sign contracts.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Yes, there was a paper distributed to all the members on the report from the Library of Parliament that you refer to. If you happen to have questions on that, the person who wrote it is with us here today. We can always ask him questions as well.
Mr. Cullen.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
I know this has come up before, and please excuse me if it's somewhere in the written material, but I'm wondering if Mr. Ménard, and perhaps the researchers could explain how this scenario would work if one adult presented himself or herself with a young child, or if a couple appeared with a young child. Would someone have to establish that these people--let's say there were two of them--were the parents and that they both consented? They could consent verbally, I guess, at that point.
Or if you had a person who was a single parent, let's say, it could be established that they were one of the parents. In the case of, for example, the mother travelling with the child and the father being somewhere else, with the parents being married and both having given consent, presumably then you're saying this motion would say that person leaving the country would have to have a letter from the other spouse agreeing that they could travel with....
I understand the problem that Mr. Ménard is touching on, but I'm just wondering about the practicalities of it.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Do you want the person from the Library of Parliament to come to the table ?
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
This is Mathieu Stanton.
You are welcome to come and maybe offer a comment on what was just said. Thank you very much for being on hand to come, by the way. Could you make a comment on what was just said?
4:20 p.m.
Mathieu Stanton Analyst, Library of Parliament
Regarding the honourable member's question, the hypothetical I was given concerned children travelling on their own, not in the company of any other person. So I wouldn't be able to answer that question, really.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I have no trouble understanding Mr. Ménard's concern. I would like to respond to the questions raised by Mr. MacKenzie. If a parent wants to travel to the United States with a child, either by car or by plane, that parent must have the authorization from the other parent to do so, even though the child has a passport and is accompanied by one of the two parents.
For many years, my family and I welcomed foreign students into our home, students from other countries who lived with me in Quebec. When I had to travel, for instance to the United States, or when these students returned home by plane, we had to provide evidence that this young person, who was a minor, was authorized to travel. I believe that Mr. Ménard's concern lies with situations in which a minor will travel by plane on his own and without the authorization of a parent. Or that child might be travelling with an adult and nevertheless be a runaway, and be accompanied by an adult who does not have parental authority over that child. I think this type of situation happened in Quebec before Christmas, and it might happen again and be very dangerous. Even though it might seem complicated, I think it is the duty of our committee to ensure that children travel safely. I wholeheartedly support my colleague's motion. I believe we must protect children and there is a simple way to do so, namely by requiring that any minor who travels must have parental consent to do so.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Roy Cullen Liberal Etobicoke North, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and to the researcher.
If what we are saying is the way that it has been described, we'd have to make a friendly amendment. The motion says “they will ask minors whether they have a letter or other document”. I think a friendly amendment would say, “minors who are travelling alone”.
I recall when I had a minor living in England who used to come to Canada unaccompanied. And I remember at the time there was quite a little bit of a rigmarole to get that status, but it might not have been as tight or as thorough as it needs to be. You had to convince the airline that this person had the authority to travel.
But with that amendment, I would be more prone to support it, although it does raise the issue that Mr. MacKenzie raised, that if you put something on it for air travel, that deals with people flying to Europe or the Caribbean or Asia or wherever, but it doesn't deal with people who ship their kids to the United States and so on.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I simply want to respond to some of the concerns which were raised. I did not realize that we forgot to mention the situation of a child travelling alone, but that's what we meant. So I do not object to an amendment to include consent.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Further, I see no problem as far as buying the ticket is concerned. I am not asking that inquiries be made at the moment a ticket is purchased, I am asking that inquiries be made at the border, at the moment of departure. I thought you were already aware of this. In the situation we are talking about, the child was very shrewd because he used his parents' credit card, and he knew that his parents would only receive their credit card statement when they came back from their holiday.
Why target flights? First, because it's easy to do so. Further, a person can travel farther by plane than by car or by train, on the same continent. You can fly to other countries where it would be very difficult to find a child. Our relationship with the United States is fairly good, so it is possible to search for a missing child south of the border. I have to say in all honesty that parents who hear about this story don't understand that, despite existing security regulations, a child can still travel on his own to another continent. In this case, it was Africa. The child went to Morocco.
I personally don't think this is very complicated, but if you think so, we would suggest turning this over to the minister and recommending that the government take the necessary measures. We would let the government decide how to address this issue, be it through legislative or regulatory means, to find an easy solution to a situation which can be a nightmare for families.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
I have a question for Mr. Ménard.
You talked about the craftiness of children who are able to access their parents' credit cards. What would stop them from forging a document, a letter, from their parents? I don't know if this is going to solve a whole lot. If these kids want to do something, it's going to be difficult.
But that's just a little aside.
(Motion negatived)
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
