Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Linda Vandendriessche  Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Fred Neukamm  Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Roger Préfontaine

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. We are in meeting 35. The first part of our meeting today is public. We will be continuing our study of contraband tobacco.

I would like to welcome our witnesses from the Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board. We appreciate you coming here. You have been waiting for a little while. We look forward to what you have to tell us.

The usual practice is to let you have an opening statement of approximately ten minutes, if that's all right. I would ask that you introduce yourselves, maybe explain what your positions are, tell us a little bit about yourselves, and then begin your presentation.

Whenever you're ready, go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Linda Vandendriessche Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Thank you.

Good afternoon. I am Linda Vandendriessche, chair of the Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board. With me today is Fred Neukamm, vice-chair of the board.

We would like to thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for the opportunity to appear before the committee today.

Empowered by our Ontario Farm Products Marketing Commission, our board is responsible for all production, marketing, and advocacy issues relevant to all Ontario flue-cured tobacco farmers. Each year, based on the trade's purchase intentions, the board sets a crop size. It is our responsibility to enforce stringent regulations, issue production licences, and organize a manageable flow of tobacco to our auction exchange. We have a number of checks and balances--crop surveys, on-farm inspections, and other things--within our system that allow us to monitor each farm unit to ensure that there is compliance with our rules and regulations.

Most Canadians are aware that flourishing contraband activity results in billions of dollars being lost to government coffers, legal cigarette manufacturers, and retailers. What most Canadians are not aware of is the effect of contraband on tobacco growers and our communities. In 1998 our crop size was 151 million pounds. Indications for the 2008 crop are ranging from 16.5 million to 20 million pounds, a drop of over 85% in just 10 years. Your committee can appreciate the huge problems of excess infrastructure that a crop of this size creates.

We believe this nosedive in demand can be largely attributed to the fact that the contraband and counterfeit product of today does not include our highly regulated Ontario-grown leaf. Legal and illegal manufacturers are importing countless truckloads and container-loads of uncontrolled, cheaper leaf daily. Cigarettes manufactured by the legal domestic companies historically have contained approximately 95% Canadian leaf. Now the Canadian content is below 50%.

Under our current system, all flue-cured tobacco grown in Ontario must be sold through our board. The board is the only authority that can issue a licence to grow and market flue-cured tobacco. We also have the authority to revoke a licence if a farmer is convicted of participating in an illegal act. We can cancel basic production quota or marketing quota, or refuse to issue shipping instructions. In 1999 four producers were charged by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and convicted for selling tobacco illegally. In this case, the board cancelled a total of 532,702 pounds of basic production quota.

Although our power over production extends over the entire province, production on native reserves appears to be exempt. A few acres of flue-cured leaf was grown on Six Nations reserve in 2006. Last year production on the reserve expanded to around 150 acres. Curing facilities have been moved onto the reserve, and experienced personnel have been hired to oversee the operation.

We took this information to the RCMP. To our knowledge, the crops were harvested. We are not aware of steps that were taken to curtail the existence or expansion of future leaf production on the reserve.

Within our system, if anyone under our jurisdiction without a licence plants a crop, that crop is destroyed. Just three years ago we destroyed the crop of one of our farmers who failed to report a field of tobacco to us.

Historically, the majority of our producers have operated within the boundaries of the law. However, in these difficult times, criminals are preying on our vulnerable, debt-ridden farmers. They are offering them an opportunity to grow and sell their leaf under the table, with no taxes or fees to pay--just cold, hard cash upon delivery. We fear this problem will escalate as farmers are forced to look for a means to survive and to service debt.

Robberies are on the rise. Since January 2007, in excess of 2,000 bales of tobacco have been stolen from tobacco growers' barns. When you convert those pounds to cigarettes and calculate the potential taxes, you are looking at an excess of 11.5 million stolen tax dollars, not to mention a significant loss and threat to the farm family as well.

A short time ago we met with representatives of the Canadian Revenue Agency, the Ontario Provincial Police, the RCMP, and the Ontario Farm Products Marketing Commission to discuss everyone's roles and responsibilities relevant to contraband control. We were surprised to learn that the OPP had no jurisdiction in enforcing the board's regulations relevant to production and marketing controls. This responsibility falls on the shoulders of the short-staffed RCMP.

Over the past three years we have passed on 28 tips regarding alleged illegal activities that have been provided to us, but we are not aware of any arrests that have been made. We know that manpower is limited, and regrettably there are many fronts for the RCMP to cover during this period of lawlessness.

Last year, representatives from the CRA met individually with tobacco growers to determine if the farmers had a suitable bookkeeping and record system in place. These meetings also provided the CRA with an opportunity to ensure that the rights and obligations of a grower under the Excise Act 2001 were understood.

Although we believe the intentions of this exercise were good, inexperience and a lack of understanding of the Ontario system amongst the field team created significant confusion. For example, some farmers were told they could sell their leaf directly to export buyers. This created major confusion. While selling directly to exporters is permitted under the Excise Act, under Ontario law and our regulations all flue-cured tobacco grown in the province of Ontario must be sold through our exchange.

It is our understanding that the second visit within a year of the first was part of the original plan of CRA. We would caution field representatives to be well versed in precedence and the laws of the land prior to another meeting with our farmers.

We can assure you that we take our mandate very seriously. We have done and will continue to do all we can to ensure that our membership operates within legal guidelines. However, times are desperate, debt loads are unmanageable, and we are looking at the smallest crop in our history. Unquestionably, the lure of fast cash is intensifying.

We want to deal with one issue head-on here today. At a meeting of this committee several weeks ago, there was a discussion between representatives of two tobacco manufacturers who disagreed on the nature of the majority of smuggling. One said the problem originated largely as a cross-border issue; the other suggested the Ontario farmers were to blame.

Although we acknowledge that there may be some illegal sales off Ontario farms, we disagree vehemently with the suggestion that most of the illegal tobacco sales originate on Ontario farms. We believe the RCMP is right when it states that currently the largest proportion of all contraband tobacco seized by the RCMP originates from illicit manufacturers on the U.S. side of the Akwesasne territory.

As we said at the outset, we have a rigorous survey and inspection system; we do spot checks and inventory counts to ensure that tobacco farmers are following the rules. We hear reports of some leakage, but we know from our inspections that almost all tobacco grown in Ontario is sold legally. We are frustrated, however, at the RCMP's lack of resources to deal with the issues in our neighbourhood and follow up on the tips they are provided. We believe the lack of a solution to our infrastructure problems means the risk of illegal sales is increasing exponentially as we speak.

This is because until the last few years farmers were terrified to sell illegally because of the board's stiff penalties, penalties that make those under the Excise Act seem tame by comparison. A farmer who sells illegally is risking almost everything he has, under our quota system. But with the collapse of the market and no government help, the quota will lose its value and farmers will not be deterred from selling illegally.

The only solution to this issue is to rid tobacco farmers of excess infrastructure. A fair and universally accessible exit plan could ensure economic integrity.

We are encouraged by the government's commitment to action against contraband. We firmly believe that criminal activity will subside considerably when the laws of the land are enforced on all Canadians. We strongly urge Minister Day to ensure that comprehensive solutions to the contraband plague are identified immediately and that tobacco farmers are part of that solution.

We are ready and willing to participate and cooperate fully to reach a much-needed resolve.

Thank you for your time and attention.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

With you is Mr. Fred Neukamm.

You didn't introduce yourself, sir. Could you perhaps tell us who you are and what you represent?

3:50 p.m.

Fred Neukamm Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Yes, thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Fred Neukamm. I'm the vice-chair of the board. Both Linda, our chair, and I are tobacco producers. We are both farmers. We are an elected board. The quota holders, our membership, elects us. I've been the past chair of the board for a number of years, and I am currently the vice-chair.

Certainly we are very interested not only in the contraband issue from a broader sense, but certainly we believe the contraband is a major contributor to our economic demise. There's a complex relationship involving government policy, the legal manufacturer's response to that policy, and of course the contraband issue. As our chair outlined in her presentation, our crop volumes have dropped dramatically as a result of these complex relationships.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We'll begin our questioning with the Liberal Party, for seven minutes. Who would like to lead off?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Do you want to go first?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Okay. I have a couple of questions, and you can ask a couple.

We had the RCMP here at the beginning of the sessions. In fact they were the first witnesses. I don't remember them telling us that they lacked resources to deal with this problem. In fact they came to us with a shiny new booklet that talked about a new strategy, and I certainly didn't hear that. But are they saying it to you? It seems to be one of the themes inside this presentation today. Is that something that has been expressed to you?

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

Yes.

I can answer that question by telling you that we have had an opportunity to meet with the RCMP, the CRA, and others, and at that time the resources were few. I can't tell you exactly how many RCMP officers are allocated to tobacco, but it's not very many. And they have indicated that they have a shortage.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Also today you talked about robberies of tobacco directly from the farms. Was there also a lack of resources to deal with those thefts?

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

So they were never followed up, or...?

3:50 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

They were identified too. The RCMP was called in. But you have to remember, at that particular time we were told that there were only two RCMP officers allocated to the tobacco and there was some difficulty in getting them out there. But the OPP would come out, because it is a theft. Regardless of what the theft is, the OPP does come out. But there haven't been any convictions to date.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

In the concluding paragraph you say the only solution to this issue is to rid tobacco farmers of excess infrastructure, and that a fair and universally accessible exit plan could ensure economic integrity.

Now, not everybody is conversant with the economics of tobacco farms, so for the record, could you explain to us exactly what you mean by the exit strategy?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Fred Neukamm

As many of you may be aware, we operate under a supply-managed quota system, and with the precipitous decline in the legal demand for our product, we have a quota-holding membership of 1,559 individuals. Currently the legal demand for the product would support only roughly 200 medium to large-sized farms, so there is a massive over-infrastructure in our sector.

We were successful in 2005 in getting government support for a partial quota buyout. It was under the TAAP program of 2005. We've been asking the government since that time to continue with that process to help farmers exit tobacco production.

When we suggest that the only solution is an exit plan, that's from the farmer's perspective. We have too many people, and there's not enough legal activity to support us all. Many of our farmers need to leave, and they need an economically viable way to leave. Having all this excess infrastructure only provides for, I would say, the lure of another form of contraband, which is the off-farm sales. We do not deny it exists. We know it does. We don't really have the resources ourselves to stop it from happening, but a managed exiting of the excess infrastructure would do a lot to eliminate that potential source of leakage.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Regardless of whether there is contraband tobacco, and notwithstanding the lost income and lost tax income to the government because of the illegal tobacco sources, would you still be looking for an exit strategy?

3:55 p.m.

Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Fred Neukamm

I believe we would, because we have seen, as I mentioned in my earlier comments, that there is a complex relationship between government and the legal manufacturers. The legal manufacturers have opted to try to compete with the contraband product by lowering the price of many of their brands. In order to protect their profitability, they import huge quantities of cheaper tobacco to do so. Hence they are buying a lot less Ontario leaf. Even if the legal market were completely restored, we would not have the confidence that the manufacturers would come back to Ontario tobacco.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

My final question to you is on the extent of the consultations the RCMP had in this new strategy, which they produced and showed us on the first day we started our hearings. Were you consulted? To what extent were you consulted? Obviously you are a major player in the control in Ontario.

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

We weren't theoretically consulted for what was going to come out in the actual document. We had just been proactive in a sense by meeting with the RCMP and CRA to understand where we sat in the big picture.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Were you aware that they were putting together this new strategy and this new packaged product? What's your opinion of what they presented to us?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

We were aware that something was going to be coming out. We did not know how it was going to be packaged and what it was going to be, but we are pleased that government is trying to come up with a strategy to stop contraband. I don't know how much of an effect it will have. I wouldn't expect it--

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

It struck me as unusual that you really highlighted the exit strategy as your main concern, and they highlighted education among other things. There was a bit of a dissonance there.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

On the first page of this presentation you talk about the crop size being reduced by 85% over the last 10 years. Are you suggesting that contraband is the main culprit in this?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

We're saying we can acknowledge that it is one of the pieces in the puzzle.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

What part does contraband play in this reduction? What percentage of the 85% would be attributable to contraband?

3:55 p.m.

Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board

Linda Vandendriessche

I don't think I can be specific and give a percentage. It's significant, in the sense that if legal sales had continued, we were growing a sized crop, and there weren't all the other issues that complicated the situation.... It's difficult to say that contraband is the only one. There are many.