Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was farmers.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Do you want to answer that one?
Conservative
Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Yes, you're absolutely right. We are saddled with significant debt and investment in tobacco-specific infrastructure—quotas, curing facilities, and equipment—that at this stage essentially has no residual value. That is our dilemma. We want to move forward, but we are trapped.
Conservative
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have two or three questions. I'll see how many we can quickly get through.
You talked about the fact that you were surprised that the OPP did not have any authority around tobacco as the RCMP does. Was it your hope or expectation that they, as well as the RCMP, would have a dual responsibility or a dual area of power?
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Exactly. That way, you can spread your resources. If you have both units working for you, there's a better opportunity of apprehension. If you have only the RCMP, located a fair distance away, it's difficult for them to get there.
We have services of the OPP and would like them to be able to participate in the control of illegal tobacco.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
All right. It's unusual sometimes to have both.
You've also talked about the fairly specific marketing board in Ontario, and certainly the Ontario regimen. Given that most of the contraband cigarettes seem to be from U.S.-grown tobacco, could you do a very quick comparison between the system that the U.S. has in place for controlling tobacco supply, leaf supply, and Ontario's?
Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Essentially, at this stage the U.S. has no controls. They also, for many, many years, operated under a supply-managed quota-based system. That was done away with a number of years ago. Now there are no quota controls; there are no licence controls. Growers essentially grow on a contract basis for either the manufacturers directly or international leaf dealers. That tobacco can flow in the U.S. through various means to various intermediary processors. They don't have nearly the same controls or regulations on the flow of that tobacco that we do here in Canada.
We provide a licensing system in the province of Ontario. All flue-cured tobacco grown in Ontario is under our authority and jurisdiction.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
Basically, you're saying there are no controls or few controls when it comes to the United States.
Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
That's correct.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
All right. Have there been any discussions that you're aware of that the farmers have taken forward with trade or interjurisdictional bodies around the dilemmas that provides?
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
That would be extremely difficult for us as producers of Ontario tobacco. That is the jurisdiction of the government, and I don't—
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
No, I know that. Have you ever asked the government to do something like that?
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Oh, yes. Certainly we've tried every angle there to see whether we either stay in production and things are worked out, or....
What we're seeing now is the fact that we need a comprehensive program for an exit. That's where we realistically have to be.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
When you talk about criminal thefts of stored leaf from barns, I'm not sure of the extent of that. Have you any sense of whether--and I don't know if you know this, since nobody has ever been caught--the criminals are part of a larger organization or they are just individuals looking to make money or they are other growers who want more tobacco? What would it be?
Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Without the information that convictions would provide, it would be really difficult to pin that down. When we look at some of the volumes that have been stolen, one would have to assume that it is a fairly substantial type of manufacturing concern that would be stealing a large volume of tobacco. There would have to be some fairly sophisticated organization behind that. Moving that kind of volume of tobacco and processing it is not a small endeavour.
NDP
Penny Priddy NDP Surrey North, BC
In 1999 four producers were charged by the RCMP, but in the last nine years there have been no charges laid?
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
To our knowledge, that's correct.
I just want to make one point, and go back to the question you asked previously. As farmers, as farm families, we are extremely afraid of what can happen. You talk about organized crime, and you're absolutely correct. People come to the farm and threaten you and say they want the product that's in the barn. They say “We'll pay you for it”, and we, as honest producers, say “No, you can't do that. We have a system we have to go through.” This has happened to some of our producers, and the people have come back, and they've stolen the tobacco. Do you know what fear that puts into a farm family?
NDP
Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
Individuals come to ask. Individuals drive onto the farm and say “We'll give you x number of dollars per pound for your tobacco”. These farmers are saying “Are you crazy?” As I've indicated, you could lose your quota if you were caught doing such things. So they send them away. And yet there have been occasions, as I've explained to you, on which a significant number of bales have been stolen.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
We'll now go over to the government side. Mr. Norlock, please.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much for coming today and helping us get a picture of this problem we have with regard to contraband tobacco. There are a lot of issues. Of course, you are part of the issue. I suppose if we didn't have a tobacco industry in Canada, it might control things, perhaps, a little bit more. We don't know that. We're looking at all aspects.
Concerning buyouts, I understand in the past there have been two. I think you mentioned that the TAAP program was the later one. What was the balance with regard to those buyouts as far as provincial government versus federal government goes?
Vice-Chair, Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers' Marketing Board
It was approximately 60-40.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
And that sixty part was federal or provincial?