Evidence of meeting #38 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Margaret Bloodworth  National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office
Rennie Marcoux  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Security and Intelligence, Privy Council Office
Marc Tardif  Director, Security Operations, Privy Council Office

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order. This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is meeting number 38, and we are considering the security issues related to the former minister.

We'd like to welcome to our committee today witnesses from the Privy Council Office.

The usual practice at this committee is to allow you an opening statement of approximately 10 minutes or so. Then we proceed to questions and comments. If you wouldn't mind today, if you'd introduce yourselves and maybe give us an idea of your position within the Privy Council Office, it would be helpful. Just give a brief description of what you do there, and then go ahead with your presentation.

Thank you.

3:30 p.m.

Margaret Bloodworth National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am Margaret Bloodworth. I'm the associate secretary for cabinet and the national security adviser to the Prime Minister. I have with me Ms. Rennie Marcoux, who is the assistant secretary to the cabinet for security and intelligence; and Mr. Marc Tardif, who is the director of security operations for the Privy Council Office.

I have a brief opening statement, Mr. Chair, in which I've tried to put as much information as possible, which hopefully will be helpful. I believe the members have copies. We provided copies in both languages.

Mr. Chair, I am pleased to appear before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security to explain the role of the Privy Council Office in the matters the committee is studying.

The role of the Privy Council Office is to provide non-partisan advice and support to the Prime Minister, ministers within the Prime Minister's portfolio, the Cabinet and Cabinet committees. Among its many roles, the PCO advises the Prime Minister and Cabinet on national security and intelligence issues.

The PCO works closely with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service and other agencies to coordinate security arrangements for the Prime Minister, the Governor General, Cabinet and visiting government leaders, as well as security for major events such as the 2010 Olympics and the 2010 G-8 Summit.

To assist the Prime Minister in the exercise of his prerogative to appoint persons to high public office, including cabinet, the Privy Council Office is responsible for conducting background checks, the nature of which I will describe more fully in a moment, on all prospective order in council appointees and all prospective cabinet appointees. At this point it's important to distinguish clearly between background checks and security clearances and to put the usage of both in context.

A background check is conducted on prospective cabinet appointees in order to ensure there are no criminal, security, or other concerns that could affect their suitability for public office. They have always been done only on the prospective appointee, not their spouse or companion at the time of the background check or on immediate family members.

For prospective cabinet members, the background check currently consists of a four-part verification: first, a check of criminal records and suspected involvement in criminal activity by the RCMP; second, a security assessment by CSIS; third, a check for tax compliance issues by the Canada Revenue Agency; and finally, an insolvency check with the superintendent of bankruptcy.

Background checks of prospective cabinet appointees date back at least to the 1960s. For order in council appointees to non-cabinet positions, background checks have been consistently performed since the early 1980s. This government decided last August to update these checks for cabinet ministers every two years, whether or not the minister changes office.

A security clearance is conducted for public servants and for certain contractors and consultants, as a means of determining their reliability and loyalty, before they are given access to classified information required to perform their work. There are three levels of security clearances above basic reliability: confidential, secret, and top secret.

A security clearance process is initiated at the departmental level. It consists of an RCMP criminal records check and a CSIS security assessment. A credit check is performed if the nature of the duties requires it. For a top secret clearance, a credit check is always performed, as well as a CSIS field investigation. The investigation is again done only on the individual, but issues of concern relating to close family members may arise during the process, particularly if there is a field investigation.

Cabinet ministers do not receive a security clearance. This has been a long-standing practice of successive governments in Canada and is consistent with the approach in the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and Australia. All ministers and secretaries of state, when they take office, swear an oath as privy councillors that includes a commitment to keep secret all matters revealed to them in their capacity as members of the Queen's Privy Council.

It's also worth knowing that there is currently no provision for the Government of Canada to provide security clearances to members of the House of Commons or to Senators.

Upon taking office, all Cabinet Ministers are provided with written guidance, set out in the publicly available Accountable Government: A Guide for Ministers and Secretaries of State, on the core principles regarding their role and responsibilities as ministers, and the standards of conduct which they should uphold. The Accountable Government Guide underscores their personal accountability with respect to security, including the security of their offices.

In addition, the director of security operations at the Privy Council Office or a member of his senior staff briefs each minister individually and in person on applicable security requirements and responsibilities as they relate to them, their staff, and their offices. They are reminded of their oath of secrecy in relation to cabinet confidences and the controls around such information.

In addition, ministers are made aware of the security measures to follow when discussing or transporting sensitive information. The briefing includes information about their responsibilities and those of their staff for the protection of sensitive information and assets, appropriate measures to take in that regard, and the role of the departmental security adviser.

With respect to classified documents, the Privy Council Office is responsible for ensuring the security of cabinet documents. Control of cabinet documents across the government is managed by the Privy Council Office's cabinet papers system unit. Cabinet documents, such as memoranda to cabinet, are strictly controlled by that unit. Copies are bar-coded to enable tracking, and distribution of the documents is limited to authorized recipients.

The CPSU requires departments to appoint cabinet document controllers, who are responsible for maintaining a register, ensuring secure distribution of documents within their organization, and returning them to that unit.

A second class of classified documents is made up of those from intelligence agencies. Those classified documents are handled in accordance with the protocols established by the originating agency.

A third category of classified documents originates within departments. These documents are handled in accordance with the procedures established within that department and the standards set out by the Treasury Board.

Security is a subject that senior public servants take very seriously. We continually seek to improve current measures and to learn from experience in order to ensure adequate protection of sensitive information and assets of the Government of Canada. However, no system is immune from human error.

In the context of the confidentiality of the aforementioned security procedures and the privacy rights of individuals, the Committee will understand there are limits to our ability to answer questions about individuals.

There are some limits, in regard to taking into account the confidentiality of security procedures and the privacy rights of individuals, on our ability to answer questions. However, consistent with that, we would note that background checks were completed on Mr. Bernier prior to his appointment to cabinet in February 2006 and, pursuant to the two-year updating of background checks, in April 2008, in accordance with the standard security procedures outlined above. In neither case were issues raised by the various agencies involved in the process. At no time has the RCMP informed PCO about any security concerns with respect to Mr. Bernier or his relationship with Madame Couillard.

The documents that Madame Couillard's lawyers returned to Mr. Bernier's office were classified at the secret level. They were not cabinet documents and originated within Mr. Bernier's department as part of the classified departmental briefing for their minister for the NATO meeting in Bucharest in April of this year.

With this overview, Mr. Chairman, I would be pleased to take questions from the members of the committee.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

We'll immediately move to questions and comments, beginning with the Liberal Party. The first person on my list is Mr. Dosanjh.

Go ahead, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you very much.

Thank you all for being here with us. My questions hopefully are brief. We have very little time. I would hope your answers are as brief and precise in order to fit that time.

You indicate that at no time did the RCMP inform PCO about any security concerns in this matter. You also indicate that the second background checks would have been done in April 2008, in keeping with the requirement that they be done every two years. I'm assuming that those checks were completed by the RCMP in April 2008.

Are you then suggesting to me that even in April 2008, despite the fact that the RCMP knew of Ms. Couillard, knew of her background, knew that she had a relationship with Mr. Bernier by then, they did not raise any security concerns with you after that check?

3:40 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

As I said in my statement, Mr. Dosanjh, at no time has the RCMP informed PCO—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

No, I appreciate that.

3:40 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

—about any security concerns with regard to Mr. Bernier or his relationship with Madame Couillard.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you.

Did anyone in the PCO, independent of the RCMP, know of the Bernier-Couillard relationship and of Madame Couillard's background and any security concerns with respect thereto before the matter arose in the public domain in early May?

3:40 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

We're certainly aware of Mr. Bernier's relationship with Madame Couillard, at least back to last summer.

I'm not sure what the thrust of your question is.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

The thrust of my question is that the RCMP would have known of the background of Madame Couillard. They recognized Madame Couillard the day she appeared in August of last year with Mr. Bernier; she was known to the police before. You're saying to me that you, despite all of that, did not know of her background or any security concerns with respect thereto, independent of the RCMP?

I'm assuming you've informed yourself about all the matters relating to this issue. I want to know whether anyone in the PCO knew of the background of Madame Couillard and of any security concerns with respect thereto before the matter arose in the public domain.

3:40 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

Mr. Dosanjh, at the moment I don't know of any security concerns about Madame Couillard. I only know what I read in the papers. With due respect, we don't make decisions based on speculation in the media.

I described the process we do with background checks. That was followed in this case. I rely on expert advice from people who are involved in the business of doing that. We do not conduct our own independent investigations.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

My question is not just directed to you; it's directed to anyone there. Is there anyone in the PCO who, after knowing about Madame Couillard's relationship with Mr. Bernier, raised any concerns within the PCO with respect to national security or otherwise? That's my question.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

And I repeat, Mr. Dosanjh, we do not do independent investigations--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I didn't ask you that; I asked if you knew.... Were there any questions raised with you or with anyone else? Were there any concerns raised within the PCO about national security or Madame Couillard's background? I didn't ask you whether you checked in these situations.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

But we do check, Mr. Dosanjh, and I described the process by which we check and on which we rely for security information.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I know that. I want to know whether any red flags went up anywhere within the PCO before early May 2008 with respect to this matter.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

I think I've answered that, Mr. Dosanjh.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

And what is the answer?

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

The answer is that we rely on the checks done by professional agencies, not on the media.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

That's not the question. Did the red flags go up or not? That's the question.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

I don't understand the question of red flags. I have tried to explain what we do professionally, and that's what we did in this case.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

No, Ms. Bloodworth, you know the meaning of the red flags, and the question I have for you is this: was there anyone within the PCO--the breadth and length of the PCO--who was concerned at any time before early May 2008 about Madame Couillard's background and any national security concerns or other concerns? If you say to me, “No, nobody ever raised it; it wasn't brought to our attention; we didn't think of it”, I'd be satisfied.

Answer my question.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

I'm trying to answer it in a professional way, Mr. Dosanjh.

We certainly read the media reports and are aware of the speculation. We do not make decisions on the basis of speculation.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I did not ask you whether or not you thought of these issues after the issue became public; I asked you whether or not these concerns were present in the minds of anyone within the PCO at the time prior to early May 2008.

3:45 p.m.

National Security Advisor to the Prime Minister and Associate Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Margaret Bloodworth

And I repeat that in early April the second round of checks--the second-year checks of all ministers, including Mr. Bernier--was complete and there were no concerns raised.