Public Safety Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I'm not sure I followed all of that, Mr. MacKenzie, but I'll repeat: PCO has never at any time been provided by the RCMP with any security concerns related to Mr. Bernier or his relationship with Madame Couillard, so by implication, we could not have gone to the Prime Minister with that.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay. I think that's one of the issues we've been dealing with.

The other issue is that somehow—and I understand fully what you're telling us—you do not investigate. You take your information from the investigative agencies, such as CSIS and the RCMP.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

That's right. Our role is an advisory role, not an investigative role.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Yes, and I think you've made it abundantly clear through today's appearance before this committee.

I guess the only other thing is that I think you've made it clear that PCO, not doing investigative backgrounds, would not get into the areas that some of my colleagues have talked about and that it seems the world knew--except that most of us didn't--about individuals who might or might not associate with a cabinet minister. That's not your role.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I've tried very hard to stick to just what facts I know and the processes that are in place, and not to speculate. I'm not sure whether that answers your question, but that's what I've tried hard to do.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Fair enough.

Those are the only questions I have.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Those are the processes as they exist. Obviously things could change, but that's how they exist.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Jennings, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Bloodworth. You say that you are not very informed about this situation in particular, but when exactly did you personally become aware of Ms. Couillard's murky past? You stated that you had known since last summer that Ms. Couillard and Mr. Bernier were together. When exactly did you learn of her shady past and on what date did the Privy Council Office learn of it?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Learn of what?

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

I am talking about Ms. Couillard's shady past and her links with organized crime and biker gangs. On what date, exactly, did you personally receive this information about Ms. Couillard? And what exact date did the Privy Council Office become aware of this?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

The difficulty I'm having with your question is that what I know to date is what I read in the newspapers. I am not privy to anything other than what's in the newspapers, and I don't know the exact date it started in the newspapers. That's what I know.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

If I understand you correctly, within the government, no matter the department or agency, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the RCMP, Foreign Affairs, the Privy Council, the Department of Transport, the Department of Public Safety or the Prime Minister's Office itself, no one was ever officially informed by the Privy Council Office of Ms. Couillard's shady past. You yourself stated that you were aware last summer of her relationship with ex-minister Bernier. He was minister at the time and you stated that you had done a biennial check in April 2008. You therefore were aware that these two people were involved in a relationship. You therefore were not formally informed by anyone of her murky past, and you only learned about it through the media.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I think I've answered that question.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Is that a yes or a no?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

To this date, I have not been informed. I don't know for a fact what's in the newspapers; I know the allegations that are in the newspapers.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

And what about the Privy Council Office? You say that in your capacity as a representative of the government, you were never officially informed by anyone of Ms. Couillard's shady past, and that all of the information you possess in this regard has come from the media. You do not even know if this information is correct or not. Was anyone within Privy Council officially informed at any point in time of Ms. Couillard's murky past?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

The difficulty I'm having with the question is that you are premising that all of that is fact, and I don't know if it's fact. I've tried to be helpful about what we do know and the process we use to find out.

I can say, if you're asking whether there's somebody other than me—

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Okay, I'll make it simple for you.

The RCMP came here and testified that Madame Couillard was a person known to them. That's fact. They came here; they testified to that. So I'm asking, at any time, has anyone in the Privy Council been informed formally by anybody, from any department, that Madame Couillard was known to the police?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No, I heard Assistant Commissioner Souccar's testimony—but no one else.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

And the answer is no? Not you, not anyone else at Privy Council, at any time, not even to this date?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Well, to this date, I've heard Assistant Commissioner Souccar. That's all.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

So the first time that anyone at Privy Council knew officially that Madame Couillard was known to the police was when officer Souccar came and testified here and made that statement and affirmation.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

And I don't know yet what he meant by that, nor would it be appropriate for me to know. I'm not blaming him for not telling me, because they don't tell me about all criminal investigations, or any other investigation.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Ms. Bloodworth, when you keep saying “I”, are you speaking for yourself personally, or are you speaking for yourself and everyone at Privy Council?