Public Safety Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Do you believe that the message to members of organized crime might be that if they are able to introduce into the private life of a minister a person capable of providing them with information, that pathway will always remain open, and neither the RCMP nor the Office of the Privy Council will bother to inform the Prime Minister or the minister?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Obviously I don't believe that, and I haven't said that.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Excuse me?

Do you understand our concern with regard to security? Do you believe that it is commonplace for a minister to take up, rather suddenly I would add, with a person having had close links with organized crime?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I have tried very hard—and I hope I have succeeded—not to treat any concern raised by any member of this committee as trivial. I'm certainly not suggesting any concern is trivial. I have tried to be as accurate as I can about the involvement we have, and what we do, and what our role is in terms of advising the Prime Minister. If I have suggested in any way that this means I think anything you're saying is trivial, I apologize. That has never been my intent. I've only been focusing on what I do and my role.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

For the future, then, would you have advice to give? For example, before launching a more in-depth investigation, checks could perhaps be made in the criminal databases to see if the spouses or new flames of a minister have had ties with organized crime.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It's always possible to change the process for background checks or security clearances, indeed, and I think I've tried to indicate a couple of times when it has changed over time. There is always a discretion to operate, as to how much you do, because all of this takes time and effort and delays the formation of cabinets, and so on.

I am not suggesting, and I've tried not to suggest anywhere, that somehow the existing system is perfect and never should be changed, but there are costs to changing processes. What I think Mr. Cullen referred to, the idea of looking at all at spouses and so on, has some implications for it that any Prime Minister would have to consider. Depending on the circumstances and what was being considered, I would give appropriate advice to the Prime Minister.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is up. I'm sorry.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I began at 4:44 and it is now 4:49.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You've had five minutes and eleven seconds.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We therefore have five minutes and not seven.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, five minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You are right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'm sorry.

Ms. Priddy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to clarify something. If it is the deputy minister for each ministry who sets up the system of how documents are treated, retrieved, marked, etc., would it then be the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs we should be calling--and I'm not asking you if we should call that person--to explain why classified documents could be gone for five weeks without the ministry having noticed?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

What I said was that the deputy minister is responsible for the system within the department of how secure documents are classified, handled, and stored. Ministers are also responsible within their offices as to how they are handled once they come into their office.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I understand that. But I'm getting the sense, given that they were missing for five weeks, that perhaps the deputy minister could offer us some insight on how they could be missing for that long--albeit that Mr. Bernier took them to and left them in an unsecured place. But for that length of time, you'd think the system would notice.

Could I ask who does your--

[Margaret Bloodworth]

If I could just add, that's one of the reasons for the review. You're quite right, there is concern about these documents. That's why there is a review being conducted.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Who does the background checks for you?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

The RCMP, CSIS.... I'm sorry, is your question which agencies or who in the Privy Council Office?

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I'm sorry, no. I take it that somebody in the Privy Council Office has a list of potential people the Prime Minister is looking at for cabinet, or whatever, and provides that to you. I'm asking which agencies you request to provide those background checks.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

I'll refer to my opening statement. As I said, there's a four-part verification.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Yes, I saw that.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

The first part is by the RCMP. The second part is by CSIS. The third part is tax compliance with regard to the Canada Revenue Agency. The fourth part is insolvency, which is in fact the Office of the Superintendent of Bankruptcy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

So what we know, then, is that in April 2008 both the RCMP and CSIS looked at the background check that was being updated on Mr. Bernier. I expect that is correct.

In regard to ministerial appointments as opposed to appointments by the Prime Minister--and this may be an unfair question for you--do you know if there are background checks done on those people?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

There are background checks for all order in council appointees, many of whom come from ministers. But it's a two-way check, not a four-way check. They do the RCMP and CSIS. They don't do the other two.

There may well be ministerial appointments that don't go through the order in council process, where they may or may not. I don't know.

Marc or Rennie, do you know?