Public Safety Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

It is not really that aspect that is a problem for me. I can well imagine that ministers tend to work after dinner and to spread documents out on their dining room table, for example, or to open up documents in their hotel room, go and do their ablutions, and then come back to them, etc.

I would like to know what you tell them when you give them specific information as to the way of guarding these documents vis-à-vis those people admitted into their private life.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

They are certainly advised to use great care when they take documents outside of the office, not to leave them in public spaces, and to be careful about talking about things in public areas, if that's your question. I'm not sure I--

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No, indeed, my question goes a little bit further, but I imagine that you will answer it willingly. It is indeed possible that the person sharing the minister's private life see such secret documents, is it not?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

From what I understand, you have never felt the need to investigate ministers' spouses. I also believe that you never in fact had any reason to want to launch any such investigation.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Just to be clear, we don't investigate anyone. What we do are background checks through the various agencies. Those background checks are done--yes, if that's your question--on the potential appointee or, in the case of the updates, on the person in the position, not on their spouses.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In fact, no incident has ever in the past prompted you to carry out a summary investigation on a person involved with a minister.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

It still wouldn't be us who would do the investigation. It would be either the police or the security agency, depending on the circumstances. We're not an investigative agency. That is what I'm trying to say.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I believe that, theoretically, you are in agreement with me on the fact that a person having had intimate and continuous relations with several members of various criminal organizations would represent a security risk and that such a person should, to the greatest extent possible, not be exposed to secret documents.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

If you're asking me in theory if that could represent a danger, yes, it could. I'm not commenting on this case because I don't know enough of the facts to comment.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I know. I understand that you are limiting us to the world of speculation because you cannot tell us the truth. But we would like to know the truth. In any event, there is a part of the truth that we are certain of knowing.

You say that, by experience, you always strive to improve...

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's a point of order. Just wait.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I hope my colleague didn't say that the witness wasn't telling the truth, because if he did, that's—

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

It is a translation error, Mr. MacKenzie, it is not what I said. I will explain to you what I said later on, in English, and you will understand. Ms. Bloodworth understood me perfectly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have one minute left.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You seek to improve your security check procedures based upon what you experience, correct?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

After every incident we would do that, yes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Do you not think that it would be appropriate to carry out a more in-depth check when you discover, at a given point in time, that a minister has become intimately involved with a person who for many years had serious and continuous links with various members of organized crime? These are exceptional cases and it is easy to carry out such checks through the databases we keep on criminals.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will have to be the final question.

[Margaret Bloodworth]

Again, I don't do investigations, and it is always possible to change the procedures for background checks. Governments, from time to time, have in the past.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, thank you.

Ms. Priddy.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have several questions. One is just a clarification.

I think it says in here that if it is a cabinet document, it is marked. Or what did you say?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

They're bar-coded.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Okay. But the document referred to here was not a cabinet document, but a document that was generated within the ministry of Monsieur Bernier.

Do you know, or do you have responsibility for, how ministries then track documents that are classified as secret? Or does everybody just do their own thing?

[Margaret Bloodworth]

No, they don't just do their own thing. Deputy ministers in departments are responsible for setting out the procedures in their department, but there are standards set by the Treasury Board within which they do that.