Public Safety Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[Adil Charkaoui]

Coming back to my own life, there is no doubt that travel broadens the mind. I was almost conceived in Malaga, Spain. As you know, Morocco is located south of Spain, and only the Mediterranean Sea separates us from Spain. At the end of every month, we would take a trip together.

At the age of 17, I started travelling on my own. I went to Egypt. Finally, we came to Canada. I arrived here in 1995 at the age of 21, and I began travelling in the United States and Europe. I didn't only go to Pakistan. The trip to Pakistan was not really a teenage project, since I was already 24 years of age at the time. But I wanted to discover part of my own culture. You may say that I am an Arab and that Pakistan's culture is not Arab, but Muslim. I had a choice among a number of countries—Syria, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. The most practical one for me, monetarily-speaking, was Pakistan, where the cost of living was lower. I left with my knapsack on my back and travelled around the country for five months. I discovered the Pakistani Muslim culture, which is different from Arab culture and is more like Indian culture in terms of the cooking and local culture. I came back to Canada. I went on a legal visa. I did not use forged papers, as the government claims time and again. I filed this evidence with the judge and provided a detailed explanation with respect to that trip. It was after that that he released me. So, that is the travel side of it.

The fundamental problem with security certificates is that someone can look at any given aspect of my life and make me out to be a terrorist. If I tell them I don't have a beard and don't dress like a member of the Taliban, they'll say I'm a sleeper agent. But, if I have a beard and am a devoted follower of Islam, they will take me for an extremist. An extremist can also be deported if he presents a threat. If I'm unmarried, I pass for someone who could become a suicide bomber; if I am married, it's nothing but a cover. If I don't work, I'm getting money from abroad; if I work, I'm giving money to other people. If I have an education, I am studying for a doctorate and I take a trip somewhere, people will say that I am an ideologue; if I have no education, they'll say that I'm just going to be brainwashed. In all of these cases, I come out the loser. That is not a fair trial; those are just unproven rumours and allegations. It's the theory [Inaudible--Editor]. In that kind of situation, I am always the loser.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We're often told that security certificates are like a three-walled prison. There is an exit wall, which allows you to get out—in other words, agree to be deported. Could you tell us why you do not and cannot accept that solution?

[Adil Charkaoui]

The coalition that was founded following my arrest, by my parents and activists in Montreal who are part of the Muslim, old-stock Quebecker, Jewish and other communities, is called the Justice Coalition for Adil Charkaoui.

What I am seeking most is justice. I cannot adequately describe the stigma that goes along with security certificates. My wife and my children are ostracized, as are my parents and my family in Morocco and even my in-laws in Tunisia. I can't go off and travel anywhere I want to in the world with the label of alleged al-Qaeda sleeper agent still associated with my name. I will be stigmatized for life. Even here, when I walk down the street and I see people looking at me, I'm not sure whether they are looking at me sympathetically or whether they're afraid. I carry with me the continued shame of having to live with that label, without anything having been proven. But I have to live with that. Every day, I am stigmatized in my family life, social life and daily life. Another thing…

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I have very little time left. Perhaps you could tell us why you are afraid to be stigmatized as a terrorist in Morocco, which is your country of origin, and the implications that could have for you.

[Adil Charkaoui]

In order to answer your question, I would like to refer to an Immigration Canada ruling. In 2004, when I was in prison, an officer with the Border Services Agency gave me the PRRA ruling. An Immigration Canada officer believed I would be tortured in Morocco and that my life was in danger. However, in applying the ruling of the Supreme Court in the Suresh case, something the government did incorrectly, they weighed the threat I pose to Canada against the risk of my being tortured. Even though there was a danger that I would be tortured, they were sending me back. I can give you all a copy. You can read it; that's what it says.

Last October, there was a second assessment…

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We have very little time left, Mr. Charkaoui.

As I understand it, you believe that you may be tortured, or worse, in Morocco, if you return.

[Adil Charkaoui]

There is a ruling from Immigration Canada certifying that.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

But what do you, personally, think?

[Adil Charkaoui]

Personally, I cannot leave Canada to go to any other country until I have cleared my name. If I end up somewhere else in the world… If I go to the United States, I will end up in Guantanamo. If I go to Morocco, there are secret prisons there for alleged terrorists. So, wherever I go, I will be arrested. Stockwell Day says it's a three-walled prison; that's wrong. The consequences are serious.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Priddy, please.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, everybody, for being here this morning, and to your families who are in the audience today.

I always do this at the beginning, just to put some context around the questions I ask.

The NDP, as you may know, is not supporting this piece of legislation because we think there are certain violations of democracy that are inherent in Bill C-3. And even with special advocates and all the things that people have talked about, I don't think it in any way does away with what those basic foundation pieces of democracy are.

I would like to ask just a couple of questions, though, if I might.

I'd like to know this, either from Mr. Harkat or Mr. Charkaoui. When you've travelled in other countries, and you obviously have, have you in any way run into a set of circumstances, probably not the same as this but similar to this, in which people accused you of nefarious activities because you were travelling or accused you because you'd been previously in a certain country, and your passport said that?

[Mohamed Harkat]

Actually, I left Algeria almost 19 years ago and it was the first time I left Algeria. I went to Saudi Arabia to try to study or to work there because of the political situation in Algeria that time, which I was involved in, and the army and the police started looking for me. There was no plan for coming back, and suddenly, when I went to Saudi Arabia, I found it a lot different. If it was because it was the first trip for me, I don't know. You need a permit to work there. I had 15 days.

That's why I ended up in Pakistan working in a refugee camp that time. I worked four years there. I didn't have plans to go to Algeria, I wanted to stay to work, and those were the only things, to support myself and to be working.

When the situation went bad in Algeria, when the army took over the democracy in Algeria they started looking everywhere in Algeria. I was in Pakistan. They had suspicions in Algeria; the government wanted to bring back any Algerians overseas.

That's why I ended up here in Canada. I heard about Canada and how it can protect human rights and how it was doing peacekeeping at the time. It was the best democracy, and you could explain yourself. And that's what I did. I came here and explained myself, and I was here for seven years. I didn't have a problem anywhere in other countries; it only happen here five years ago, when I got arrested. I had never been arrested in any country. I never was charged. I never committed any crime anywhere.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Charkaoui, I know yours is a somewhat different set of circumstances, but you've obviously travelled extensively. Have you encountered any kind of similar concern about your travels, your activities, the number of stamps on your passport, whatever?

[Adil Charkaoui]

We'll answer in French, I'm sorry.

I was never harassed, but my problems began after my initial contact with CSIS, when I applied for Canadian citizenship. In 2000, I was getting ready to travel to Morocco with my wife, who was three months' pregnant at the time. I was stopped at Dorval Airport, my baggage was searched, and Corporal Duval, an RCMP officer who testified in my case, warned me, saying that if I took that plane I would be harassed in Morocco. So I asked him why I would be harassed. He answered that my name was on a list. It was the first time I realized I was being tracked by CSIS. I told him that I had done nothing wrong and that I was going to leave anyway.

So, I left and, when I arrived at the airport in Morocco, my bags were searched once again and I was questioned. A member of my family works at the airport, and he was told that someone had called from Canada to say that the most dangerous terrorist ever would be arriving in Morocco that day. I was released with my wife. I was followed everywhere. Two unmarked cars followed me everywhere I went and actually spent the entire night on the street outside my family home in Morocco.

On my way back, I was basically kidnapped by the FBI, and that has been documented. The Canadian government acknowledged that. Like Mr. Maher Arar, I was taken off the plane, had guns pointed at me and was told: “Follow me or I will shoot you”. I got off the plane with my wife; she was really scared. I said that I was a Moroccan citizen and a permanent resident of Canada. They told me that I was on U.S. territory. I spent 10 hours in the basement of JFK Airport and was questioned about every aspect of my life. They knew everything about me. They finally released me. The FBI agent told me they had nothing against me and that I had a problem in Ottawa.

So, the people who really got me in hot water—pardon the expression—were CSIS agents. That is documented before the courts and I can provide you with all that evidence.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I understand that. I have read it. I just didn't know if in your travels you had received similar treatment, or similar kinds of very intensive questioning, in any other country.

My second question would be to anybody who wants to answer it, but certainly to Mr. Charkaoui or Mr. Harkat. If you had come to Canada and--I'm not saying you were--had indeed been involved in a terrorist activity, if there was evidence you had in one way or another, what would you expect to have seen happen?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

There's time for a brief response.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I'm saying “if”. If this were the truth, and you had a terrorist activity, what would you have expected to see happen, knowing about Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Harkat.

[Mohamed Harkat]

Somebody should be treated with the Criminal Code and sentenced like anybody else. If there is some suspicion of me, I'm not supposed to be standing in front of you here. I'm not coming to face you, I am innocent. I'm just looking for justice. Already the Canadian government said, okay, if you want to leave, leave. I don't think so. Somebody else is going to say here in front of you...they let him be.

[Penny Priddy, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

So you would have expected to be charged under the Criminal Code.

[Adil Charkaoui]

If you're dealing with a dangerous terrorist, he should be tortured, burnt alive and you should re-establish the Inquisition. I find it quite incredible that people can ask those kinds of questions in the 21st century. I am absolutely outraged. What should be done with a dangerous terrorist? Well, you need to torture him, throw him in a prison with dogs and strip him naked. That's the answer that comes to mind.

[Sameer Zuberi]

Perhaps I could reply very quickly.

Mr. Dosanjh said previously that Care Canada doesn't support Bill C-3 but is proposing amendments. As it is right now, we don't support Bill C-3 and we stand strongly against the security certificate. We think criminal legislation is a standard that should be there, that should be put in place. If you want to keep it under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, insert criminal legislation standards into that act so these men can know what they are up against and can defend themselves, as we can, in an open court. That's what our position is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

Mr. Brown, please.

[Gord Brown, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'd first like to say it is probably quite extraordinary for people who are subject to security certificates or their equivalent in other countries to have an opportunity to have a say in a government committee on how the government may be changing legislation. I think that's a real testament to the Canadian system.

We've heard from Mr. Ménard that the security certificate regime process has been described as a three-walled prison, and that those who are subject to security certificates have the opportunity to leave the country if they so choose.

Maybe, Mr. Harkat, we didn't hear from you. We did hear a little bit from Mr. Charkaoui on why you don't take that option.

[Mohamed Harkat]

I don't take that action because if we accept that Canada is built on justice, if I can't have the opportunity to defend myself in this country—compare it to Algeria, which has the worst justice system—how are we going to accept that you're going to let me go?

I'm now in a bail hearing. I wear a bracelet and CBSA follows me in this country. What about Algeria? Would Algeria just let me go free like that? For sure I would be tortured and sent to jail. With the allegations building in this country, if they send me there with all the suspicions about me here, it will be impossible to clear my name over there too.