Evidence of meeting #9 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was justice.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
In the case of Mr. Harkat, like my colleague here, I read Justice Dawson's decision. A number of his reasons are based on the testimony of Mr. Harkat himself. So, that may not be the best…
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
Yes, but I can cite another case. Let's take Mr. Jaballah, for example. Two days ago, the Canadian Border Services Agency…
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
… produced evidence…
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
… but it isn't evidence. They're wrong.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Mr. Legeais, it is really important that you answer that question. Do you believe that we have independent judges here in Canada?
When you say “according to the law”, you seem to be suggesting that they are from a legal standpoint, but that in reality, they are not.
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
They are according to the law. However, I question the information and allegations brought forward to them.
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
We don't know what the secret evidence contains. The problem for lawyers dealing with cases that involve security certificates is that they are really on a fishing expedition. They know nothing and they have no basis on which to draw any conclusions. That has nothing to do with the judges' independence. The judges' hands are tied.
You have probably heard the statements made by certain justices of the Federal Court, saying…
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I know Justice Hugessen very well. He is an excellent judge.
Spokesperson, Justice for Mohamed Harkat Committee
… that they are not comfortable with this system. It's not a matter of questioning the independence or integrity of a judge. The system itself and the secret evidence are the problem.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
That was a very good question, Monsieur Ménard, and I let you go a little longer.
Do you have a final comment? Are you done? Do you have any more? It was a good question. I let you go way over, so if you have anything else....
You are the last questioner. Nobody else has indicated that they have anything.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Other participants may want to tell me whether they understand the kind of situation we're facing here. Quite frankly, putting a judge in that situation… The fact is that judges are independent. I don't think you doubt the independence of Justice O'Connor, and other judges are also appointed for life.
I guess you can assume that their intellectual honesty could cause them to doubt some of the secret information they are given and the means by which that information was obtained. So, they have to weigh the pros and cons. They are presented with secret information that has to remain that way, for the reasons I cited earlier and that you also understand.
What we need is a system that would allow us to assess the danger in relation to the respect we have to show for all citizens, even if they're not Canadian.
Coalition Justice for Adil Charkaoui
I do not question judicial integrity and independence. However, nine justices who sit on the highest court of the land, the Supreme Court, clearly stated that security certificates are unconstitutional. The Barreau du Québec and the Canadian Bar Association also said that this Bill is unconstitutional. That is the problem.
Coalition Justice for Adil Charkaoui
The judges' hands are tied. The nine justices that sit on the Supreme Court, which is the highest court in the land, have already said that this is the law and that they have to work within a restricted framework. But you are the ones that impose that law on them. The justices have now put the ball back in your court. It is up to your Committee and Parliament to ensure that the security certificate process becomes a constitutional one. In order for that to happen, it has to be associated with a fair trial.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
I think everybody has had the opportunity to make their points. I appreciate the presence of the witnesses before the committee today.
We'll meet again this afternoon.
This meeting stands adjourned.