Public Safety Committee on April 2nd, 2009

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

This is the one with respect to O'Connor and Iacobucci. Now, a few weeks back, one of the Conservative members of Parliament, Mr. Richards, referred, in speaking with Paul Kennedy, who you're familiar with as well, to the civilian oversight of the RCMP as “bureaucrats and paper pushers”. I'd like to know if this government actually supports civilian oversight of the RCMP and security agencies.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I very much support that. The issue that has sometimes arisen is whether some of these bodies stay within their mandate. Oversight bodies are there to ensure that agencies stay within their statutory mandate. Those oversight bodies, however, have to stay within their mandates as well. The role that the RCMP complaints commission plays in responding to complaints is an important one.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Why has the government taken no steps to comply with the O'Connor report in respect of setting up a civilian oversight agency? You indicated in this letter of yours that the Government of Canada was moving forward with this. What have you done, and do you have any documentation that you could provide to this committee? I'm asking for it to show that you've actually done something on that recommendation.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Actually, considerable work has been done on that front. We're dealing with oversight for the RCMP and the broader question of inter-agency oversight, which is the more serious element that O'Connor and other commissions have pointed to. We're waiting for the report from Justice Major's commission on Air India, which deals with our worst failure in that area and led to the worst terrorist incident in Canadian history, to finalize those conclusions.

If you're looking for some evidence on paper of the work that's been done, I direct you to the report of the RCMP implementation committee, which was released this week. It sets out in some detail the good work that has been done and the progress that has been made.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm looking for evidence that the government has taken steps to comply with the recommendation of Justice O'Connor for an overarching review agency. Based on everything that I've seen and your letter, nothing's happened on that. Correct?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

No, that's not true at all. As I just said, a lot of work has been done. I said this earlier to one of your colleagues.There's a great pressure on politicians to go out and show that something's being done just so they can say so. We want to make sure we get it right, and we think it's incumbent upon us to wait for the work of Justice Major in the Air India inquiry before we decide we have all the answers. Frankly, I could probably introduce legislation on this within a matter of days if I wanted to, but I think it's best that we first make sure we have it right.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt. It's 10:30 and we're going to suspend for one minute to give the minister an opportunity to go to his next appointment. Then we will reconvene, and you'll have one minute, Mr. Kania.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Sorry, Minister, did you have a concluding comment?

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

I just wanted to thank the committee for the exchange this morning and encourage you to continue your good work. I appreciate all that you're doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We are suspending for one minute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, let's reconvene.

Mr. Kania.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

To Director Judd and Senior Deputy Commissioner Sweeney, they currently are not permitting Mr. Abdelrazik to return to Canada, is that correct? Do you both understand that?

[Jim Judd]

I understand that there is an issue with that, yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

Now, will you agree with me--individually, both of you--that both the RCMP and CSIS have cleared him of any involvement in either terrorism or crime?

Do you agree with that statement?

[Jim Judd]

We were asked for an opinion on Mr. Abdelrazik and we said that we have no current information of substance regarding his activities, because he's been out of the country for a number of years.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

Do you have something--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Andrew, we're going to have to wrap this up. We'll come back to you later. It's actually the Bloc's turn. You only had one minute.

Monsieur Ménard or Ms. Mourani.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Ms. Mourani.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I would simply like to clarify one point with respect to Mr. Judd. I'd like to understand why Mr. O'Brian told you that. As my colleague mentioned, we spoke with him for nearly two hours, and I don't believe he was hired by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service yesterday. That man knows the agency's practices.

I'd like to understand why he said that. How do you explain his remarks?

[Jim Judd]

My supposition is that he was venturing into the hypothetical. Just as the minister indicated earlier, I would return to the fact that our policy is clear with respect to information sharing and with respect to any information that may have been obtained through torture.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So you're telling me he was venturing into the hypothetical.

Ms. Pollak said that you occasionally use information obtained under torture. Will she also be issuing a disclaimer?

[Jim Judd]

That was based, I believe, on a report that her organization had done some years ago. As I say, our policy and practices are changed.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So your policies have changed. You've done it in the past, but you'll never do it again. Is that correct?