Evidence of meeting #18 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was torture.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Dominique Peschard  President, Ligue des droits et libertés

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

I will call to order the 18th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. The chair of course is normally the honourable and venerable Mr. Breitkreuz. The chair is not here today, so as vice-chair I will be filling in in that role.

Today we have just one witness appearing before our committee, Mr. Peschard.

Thank you for coming here to talk to us about the issues addressed in the Iacobucci and O'Connor reports.

I will give the witness the opportunity to speak for 10 minutes, and then we'll take questions and answers. That will go until 10 a.m. If there's a need to go slightly longer, we will, at which time we will be moving in camera to deal with future business.

At this point, Mr. Peschard.

9:05 a.m.

Dominique Peschard President, Ligue des droits et libertés

My name is Dominique Peschard, and I'm the President of the Ligue des droits et libertés, the Human Rights League. Before introducing you to the league, allow me to convey counsel Denis Barrette's regrets for being unable to appear with me today, as he had learned of this meeting's postponement too late and was unable to reschedule in court.

The League is a human rights advocacy and defence organization founded in 1963 and dedicated to defending all human rights under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The League spoke out publicly and quickly following the September 11 attacks to denounce anti-terrorist measures that failed to include the principles of fundamental justice, all in the name of fighting the war against terrorism, and that were based on the belief that freedom must be sacrificed in return for greater security. However, the O'Connor and Iacobucci reports show that on the contrary, the security of Canadians is threatened when these principles are set aside.

The case of Maher Arar is the story of an innocent man, beaten down by the respective security apparatus of Canada, the United States, and Syria. This story demonstrates what happens when a society abandons the safeguards of its justice system, built on compliance of fundamental rights, in the name of security.

In specific terms, the O'Connor report reveals the following: an RCMP inquiry that describes Mr. Arar with inaccurate, or blatantly erroneous facts, and on no sound basis, describes him as an Islamic extremist with ties to Al Qaeda; unrestricted intelligence exchange with American authorities who do not even comply with RCMP rules; voluntary ignorance of the torture suffered by Mr. Arar when he was detained in Syria; “accepting and exploiting information acquired through torture”; and lastly, obstructive behaviour on the part of police authorities to prevent Mr. Arar from returning to Canada and allowing leaks that served to discredit Mr. Arar in public opinion, and to justify police action in his regard.

Unfortunately, the case of Maher Arar is not an isolated one. The Iacobucci Internal Inquiry revealed that these same practices used by security services contributed to the detention and torture of Mr. Almalki, Mr. Abou-Elmaati and Mr. Nureddin.

Today, two years after the publication of the Arar report, a fifth Canadian has experienced the same fate. Abousfian Abdelrazik, is rotting away in Sudan, and the Government of Canada is putting up roadblocks to his repatriation despite the fact that he has been exonerated of suspicions by the RCMP and CSIS. Mr. Abousfian's situation proves that the remedial measures put forth by Justice O'Connor are still pending.

The inquiry into the facts surrounding Maher Arar's deportation revealed that 24 agencies or federal government departments were involved in matters of national security. Municipal, and provincial police services, as well as provincial intelligence services are also likely to have collaborated with other agencies or government police services, or even been involved in joint investigations. In fact, Project A-O Canada involved various Canadian and U.S. agencies, including the FBI, and probably the CIA. We have learned that 247 agreements on intelligence sharing were concluded between Canada and other countries.

Since September 11th, security measures throughout the world, coupled with technological developments, have triggered an accumulation and sharing of intelligence on citizens, at a dizzying rate. Ongoing sharing of intelligence between various domestic agencies and foreign agencies facilitates the integration of information in different databases located in different states. For example, intelligence provided by the RCMP can be found in one of the largest U.S. databases, the Treasury Enforcement Communication System. This database is a super database because it combines data contained in at least 19 other databases, which taken individually, hold an impressive amount of information. This complex process could have a direct result of generating erroneous information that could trigger a domino effect, multiply the amount of damage and number of victims, thereby leaving these victims bereft of any real recourse.

For people who are no more than victims of a mistake, the damage suffered can be clearly identified: the inclusion of innocent people on blacklists, loss of employment, denial of citizenship, immigrant or refugee status, restricted movement, indefinite detention, or deportation to a country where detention, mistreatment, or torture awaits.

What happens to the principles we deem essential in a democratic society: accountability, correction of erroneous personal information, the right to compensation in cases of damage to reputation, the right to privacy, individual physical and psychological integrity, protection against torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, fundamental freedoms, the right to equality, and prohibition of illegal profiling?

To prevent future breaches of rights, and to protect Canadians, the O'Connor Commission proposed a series of measures concerning police training, police practices as well as a mechanism for complaints and surveillance of activities relating to national security.

In his first report, Justice O'Connor put forth 23 recommendations. Two of these recommendations are of particular significance. Firstly, the RCMP's practices and agreements on intelligence sharing must be subject to an independent review entity. Secondly, information should never be conveyed to a country where there stands a credible risk of the use of torture.

Justice O'Connor's second report highlighted glaring flaws in the surveillance mechanisms of many agencies involved in national security. Some agencies, such as the Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP have limited powers and means—commissioners have already stated this publicly before this very committee—other agencies such as the Border Services Agency have no surveillance mechanism. In any case, a great number of surveillance agencies would not have a broad enough vision required to assess the practices of police services and agencies that work in an integrated fashion.

To address the situation, the League, following the example of other rights advocacy groups, recommended to the O'Connor Commission that one single surveillance agency be empowered to monitor all national security activities, and that it be given broad investigative powers. Justice O'Connor proposed a similar organization with a different structure, but with the same objectives.

In summary, the commissioner recommends replacing the current Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP with an independent review organization with strengthened powers, to be renamed the Independent Complaints and National Security Review Agency for the RCMP, which would also be responsible for looking into the national security activities of the Canada Border Services Agency.

The current mandate of the surveillance arm of CSIS should be widened so that more complaints can be received, and the review of the activities of various departments and agencies involved in intelligence activities and national security can be stepped up. These entities include the Communications Security Establishment Canada, Citizenship and Immigration Canada, Transport Canada, the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada and the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade.

Lastly, the commissioner recommended to the government that a new mechanism, to be called the Integrated National Security Review Coordinating Committee, be established to provide a centralized intake mechanism for complaints regarding the national security activities of federal entities and to report on accountability issues relating to practices and trends in the area of national security in Canada, including the effects of those practices and trends on human rights and freedoms.

This new mechanism must not become an empty shell, and the appropriate financial resources must be allocated to it. Its annual budget would be subject to parliamentary review prior to approval. In the opinion of the League, it is unacceptable that government institutions dedicated to protecting human rights are barely able to fulfill their mandate because of a lack of funding. This type of situation undermines the public's confidence in people's ability to exercise these fundamental rights, and in the proper functioning of government institutions.

Of course, significant change in State surveillance and investigative methods must be coupled with changes in culture, customs, and with a genuine respect for fundamental rights, especially, but not exclusively, within the RCMP. Nonetheless, these changes in mentality must be part and parcel of long-term changes, and can only be effected when the State sends a clear and unequivocal message to its constituents.

In the face of an astounding increase in State control, surveillance and investigative powers, an appropriate and effective review mechanism must be developed . This is the indispensable condition, as well as the price to pay for keeping our society free and democratic. Following a thorough and rigorous review of the matter, at both the national and international levels, Justice O'Connor recommended the creation of a new review mechanism similar to existing models in other democratic countries such as Belgium, Norway and Sweden.

It is high time to implement all of these recommendations.

We hope this committee will make a number of recommendations to the government. Since the Iacobucci Commission does not have the mandate to do this, we would also like to see this committee put forward a recommendation to the government to extend a formal apology to Mr. Almalki, Mr. Abou-Elmaati Mr. Nureddin, as well as compensation. We also recommend that the government take all the necessary measures so that erroneous information on these people and their families, which is still on file within Canadian and foreign services, be corrected, and that a formal complaint be filed against the governments of Syria and Egypt for the mistreatment of these Canadian citizens.

Thank you.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Thank you very much, Mr. Peschard.

As usual, the official opposition will have the first questions.

Mr. Oliphant, you have seven minutes,. Please go ahead.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Thank you very much for being with us today, and thank you for your testimony.

There are three areas I want to get to, although I may not get to all of them. One has to do with labelling or profiling, the second has to do with security certificates, and the last area is general oversight.

In particular, I want to talk about and get more comment from you in raising the case of Ahmad Elmaati, because he's a constituent of mine. He is not unusual in my riding; he's an average person in my riding. Yet in the process, we can see from the Iacobucci report that the profiling or labelling of Mr. Elmaati, and particularly the way it was communicated to the Egyptians, probably led to his longer incarceration, further torturing, further deprivation, and more restrictions on his human and civil rights.

I just wanted you to pull out a little bit more about not only the labelling, which I think we can all understand is wrong, but the communication of that labelling in regard to CSIS, which came up clearly in Mr. Iacobucci's report, and how that has infringed upon his human rights.

9:15 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

Well, what's particularly--

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

You may speak in French if you wish.

9:15 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

All right.

What is cause for concern in the specific case of Abou-Elmaati is the information revealed: Mr. Elmaati was not only mis-labelled, which contributed to his initial detention and torture, but the confession extracted through torture was then used by intelligence services for the purposes of obtaining a search warrant here in Canada. It was denied, or ignored that Mr. Abou-Elmaati had probably confessed under torture, and the results of these searches were then used to pass on other information to Syria.

Also cause of concern is the fact that a CSIS official, who testified before the Iacobucci Commission, and therefore after the release of the O'Connor report, admitted that from time to time, CSIS used characterizations that were then sent to foreign services, with a view to extracting an answer that would corroborate or disprove a characterization. In other words, this practice was akin to a fishing expedition, whereby an unverified characterization is sent to a foreign service so that it can corroborate or disprove the characterization.

Obviously, as Justice Iacobucci pointed out, this practice is likely to lead to other inhumane treatments, and torture of persons by the people who are holding them. This is a very worrisome practice, one that violates fundamental rights, and poses a serious problem, in the opinion of the League. This brings into play Canada's position on torture and the practices of security services.

Canada has been criticized by organizations such as the UN Committee on Human Rights and the UN Committee Against Torture for having not taken a clear and unequivocal position on the issue of torture. The cases of Mr. Arar, Mr. Abou-Elmaati and Mr. Almalki are examples, but there are also the current case of Mr. Abousfian Abdelrazik who has suffered the same fate. There's also the case of Mr. Omar Khadr. Last week's court ruling pointed to the complicity of Canadian government agents in this whole affair.

In my opinion, the entire issue of torture has yet to be resolved, not just from a political perspective, but from the standpoint of security agencies as well.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

We continue to await a ministerial directive condemning and refusing to allow CSIS to do this kind of communication. The ministerial directive is not there. The minister was here, and he said that he is waiting for the results of the Air India inquiry, which we simply don't understand, because that just keeps delaying and increasing the possibility of this happening again.

Has your organization requested such a ministerial directive? Are you in favour of that? Is that part of your work?

9:20 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

Yes. We have repeatedly asked the Government of Canada to take an unequivocal stand on torture and to clearly state that under no circumstances will it send anyone to a country where they could be tortured, and that under no circumstances will our Canadian agents serve as accomplices to torture. And yet, we are still waiting for the government's response.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Rob Oliphant Liberal Don Valley West, ON

Absolutely, it seems there are two issues for me. One is the proactive impetus by this government to actually issue a ministerial directive to make sure that this doesn't happen. The second thing is the oversight for when it does unfortunately happen. We are increasingly finding, as both O'Connor and Iacobucci have said, that it's a porous net.

The oversight functions are not coordinated. Large parts of our intelligence and security operations are not subject to any civilian oversight. This continues for us, on this side of the house, to be a strong concern. Again, we seem to be waiting for the minister to have Justice Major's report, but it seems that the recommendations are very clear in the reports from Iacobucci and O'Connor about oversight. We're having border incidents about which people don't know who to complain to when they're obviously subject to profiling, when members of their family are subject to profiling, and when members of the family are subject to travel restrictions.

It is an ongoing concern. I'm looking for your agreement on the proactive work on profiling, ministerial directive, and the reactive work on oversight.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

You have 30 seconds remaining to answer.

9:20 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

Indeed, it is clear that the current surveillance mechanisms are inadequate. The surveillance mechanism of the RCMP is certainly inadequate. The CSIS mechanism, considered as the best, did not stop the service from treating Mr. Abou-Elmaati, Nureddin and Almalki the way they did. In our opinion, most of the surveillance mechanisms need to be completely overhauled.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ménard, you have seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you, Mr. Peschard.

As you know, we are currently taking stock of what has changed since Justices O'Connor and Iacobucci conducted their inquiries. On hearing you speak, I get the impression that aside the compensation given to Mr. Arar and the apology extended to him, next to nothing has been done to implement these recommendations. We've been told or been given a list of what still needs to be done.

What positive results have you been able to gauge? Aside from the compensation paid to Mr. Arar and the formal apology made to him, which recommendations were implemented?

9:20 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

To my knowledge, for now, RCMP officials have merely reassured us that they have taken to account and will implement a certain number of recommendations contained in the O'Connor report. However, there is no mechanism to guarantee that this is indeed the case. There is no proof that changes have been made.

That is why, in the absence of an effective, arm's length surveillance mechanism, we will not be confident at all that security services are respecting the fundamental rights entrenched in the Charter, that Canadian citizens are adequately safeguarded against what happened to Mr. Arar, Almalki, Mr. Nureddin and Mr. Abou-Elmaati and what is happening right now to Mr. Abousfian Abdelrazik.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Therefore, there is a danger that the same mistakes made in connection with the cases examined by the two commissions of inquiry could be made again.

9:25 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

In our opinion, yes.

It's worrisome to note that the security services don't seem to be in much of a rush to acknowledge their mistakes. For example, let's review their conduct in the case of Mr. Arar. Justice O'Connor gave a full account of the whole flight process, the purpose of which was to hurt his chances of repatriation and also to promote the story that he was a dangerous Al Qaeda agent once he was back in Canada. Instead, they should have faced the facts, acknowledged their mistakes, and repaired the damage.

In all the cases to date, the security services have tended to try and justify their actions. And that's particularly worrisome. It only further highlights the need for an oversight mechanism.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

I'm sure you're aware that the minister appeared before us on April 2. He informed us of his decision to delay the implementation of an oversight mechanism until the Air India affair inquiry ends.

What do you think of the reason the minister gave? Do you think it's dangerous to wait this long before instituting oversight and control mechanisms?

9:25 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

I don't see the need to wait, especially since Justice O'Connor was the one mandated to present the most complete report that we'll get on the security services' actions, on the problems that these actions caused and on the way the services are run. In his second report, he suggests a review of how every service is run.

To my knowledge, that's not the Air India Commission's terms of reference. So, I don't see how the Commission would shed any more light on the intelligence and security services oversight requirements.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

I'll pick up there.

According to the Ligue des droits et libertés that you represent, what are your thoughts about the rights and freedoms of the individuals in each of these cases? Were their rights upheld or were they tried and locked away before being heard in a court of law?

9:25 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

You raise an important point. It strikes at the heart of the problem with running a security service, which is different from criminal law and where the police have to gather enough facts to potentially be able to go to trial. And the individual is aware of the charges. The accused can defend himself, and only admissible facts can be brought against him. So, there is a protection mechanism.

The big problem with intelligence and security is there may be an exchange of information which has implications for the individuals concerned, and which amount to a conviction under criminal law. The worse-case scenario is these individuals may be detained indefinitely, or even tortured as in the cases we are reviewing, without any guarantee there will be a procedure through which they will be able to defend themselves.

And that is why it is imperative, given the implications of such a situation, that there be a solid and credible oversight mechanism to prevent security intelligence activities from depriving persons of their rights.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC

You referred to arm's-length organizations with which complaints may be filed against the RCMP and CSIS. In your opinion, what organization would be the best fit, without being associated in any way with the other two organizations? It is understood that the government will establish this new organization.

Do you believe that it will be an independent organization or that it is going to be more of the same?

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Mark Holland

Unfortunately, you only have 30 seconds left.

9:25 a.m.

President, Ligue des droits et libertés

Dominique Peschard

I think Justice O'Connor proposed a mechanism to ensure effective oversight. And if there is a willingness to implement this mechanism by giving the resources, mandate and powers necessary to the Commission which oversees the infamous Integrated National Security Review Coordinating Committee, well then I think it will be possible to provide oversight. It's a matter of political will and wherewithal. So we'll have to call on the government to provide this.