Public Safety Committee on June 18th, 2009

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I don't want to shoot the messenger, but I will state for the record that one of the problems here is that of course this bill was drafted while we were putting the finishing touches on a report. I can tell you that many comments and witnesses' comments were obviously not taken into account in the drafting of this bill.

I want to focus on vehicle information. I still have not heard a satisfactory answer to the question of why vehicle information--licence plate number, make, model, year, colour, and description of the motor vehicle that's owned, leased, or used by a sex offender--is not required to be included. I'd like a specific answer as to why exactly it isn't.

Ms. Donaghy, I heard you say that you looked at vehicle information and considered it not appropriate. I'd like to know why you consider it not appropriate to include that information.

I'll tell you one other thing. It's not an RCMP issue. Inspector Pierre Nezan told this committee that the registry is of no assistance to law enforcement in sexual crime investigations where police do not have a suspect vehicle description as a lead. It's not the RCMP's issue. They clearly told this committee that the legislation doesn't authorize that information, and they wanted it in the bill.

Can you tell me why the minister did not see it as appropriate to put this information in the bill?

[Mary Donaghy]

Let me clarify my earlier comments.

Indeed, there have been discussions in this committee and in many forums about the importance of vehicle registration. There was discussion in the context of the preparatory work leading up to the tabling of this bill. There was a decision taken by the government at this time not to include vehicle registration information in the registry. Our role as officials, of course, is to execute those directions and to work within the direction that we're provided.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Again, with the greatest of respect, that's not an answer. I know the decision was taken, because I can read the bill, but that's not telling me anything I don't know. I want to know why that decision was taken, if you know.

[Mary Donaghy]

I'm not in a position to provide further comment on this. It was a decision that was taken.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So you don't know, or you don't want to say. Is that accurate?

[Mary Donaghy]

Yes, I think that's accurate. As officials, we take our direction, and we execute the will of the government of the day, as you know.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to move to automatic registration. This was an issue that we looked at very carefully. The committee heard that there were a number of difficulties with registration. One of the prime reasons was that prosecutors across the country either don't make the application, or they forget to make the application, or there are plea bargains. Of course, we have evidence from the Ontario model. The Ontario model has a longer list of offences than this legislation does, unless that's been changed by this bill.

I also understand that one of the federal offences is sexual assault. This is a hybrid offence, meaning that you can proceed by indictment or by summary conviction. Mr. Rathgeber had some interesting comments to make about perhaps looking at separating off summary or conviction offences, which I think is something worth pursuing. In the committee's draft recommendation, which the minister clearly didn't have, we were about to recommend, at least in draft form, that we have automatic registration of offenders except in very rare circumstances that warrant a departure from this rule. We were going to determine those very rare circumstances.

I'd like to know, before going to absolute automatic registration without any consideration of possible exceptions, whether there was any consideration of that and what considerations there might have been

[Douglas Hoover]

Once again, I would suggest that automatic registration has been the subject of a lot of discussion over the past number of years. There has been dialogue with provincial and territorial senior officials. There's been internal review between the Departments of Justice, Public Safety, and National Defence.

Again, various proposals were considered fully. It was the direction of the government of the day that the proposal that's in the bill before you would become part of the act and the amendments to the sex offender registry.

All I can suggest is that it is what it is at this point. I'm not sure what you had in mind in terms of your proposals and your report; I haven't seen your report. But I'd be happy to respond if you had something specific.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I saw some heads shaking the other way when I mentioned that the Ontario list of offences for which automatic registration is required is shorter. Might I take it that you disagree with that? I think it was Mr. Yumansky.

[Clifford Yumansky]

For one thing, I do not believe the Ontario legislation includes the 13 so-called “non-sexual” offences in its legislation, whereas in the federal legislation we do include those.

I believe that offence for offence it pretty much matches. Everything that's included in the Ontario legislation is included in the federal one. In fact, now we have a couple of new ones in the federal one that the Ontario one doesn't have.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm not going to quarrel with you, but are you sure about that, because--

[Clifford Yumansky]

I know that the 13 “non-sexual”--

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

That's true, but for the primary designated offences, I'm almost certain that the federal list is longer than the Ontario list.

[Clifford Yumansky]

Yes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm sorry. If I said the opposite, that's why I'm confusing you.

[Clifford Yumansky]

You're correct, absolutely.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The federal list is longer. In other words, the Ontario list is automatic because it has a shorter, more tightly controlled list of offences. Of course, the only one that I have concern about is the federal hybrid offence of sexual assault. While all sexual assaults are serious, because there are degrees of this in terms of a summary conviction offence.... The example I have in mind is an 18-year-old who inappropriately touches his 16-year-old girlfriend. The father of the 16-year-old girl gets angry and charges him. The kid gets convicted. Now he's subject to ten years of registration.

There may be the exceptional rare situation, in my mind, where it's not appropriate to hang a ten-year registration requirement on someone. The rest of the offences are appropriate, I think.

That's one of my concerns. Was there any discussion about that?

[Douglas Hoover]

All I can suggest on that is that it was a matter of extended dialogue with provinces and internally. At the end of the day, the option of going fully automatic, similar to Ontario's, as opposed to not going to automatic was considered. There were certainly a number of different variations of going automatic.

One thing I would point out is that if a sexual assault hybrid...and there are a number of hybrid offences in the automatic list. If you remove those summary conviction offences, you would see that the majority of sexual offenders would not be automatically registered. The majority of offences in Canada are in fact prosecuted summarily.

That, I think, probably was a major consideration in terms of how this was going to be structured. If the direction and the will of the government—and ultimately of Parliament—is to have an automatic system of registration for sex offenders, if the majority of sex offenders are in fact subject to some type of discretion, then I don't know that you would be calling this an automatic sex offender registry on par with Ontario's.

Again, I think that's a policy choice. It is a decision of the government of the day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a brief supplementary?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

On the latter point, how certain are you that the majority are by summary conviction? I'm looking at things like kidnapping, sexual exploitation of persons with disabilities, stupefying or overpowering for the purpose of sexual intercourse, purchasing sexual services of a person under 18, attempt to commit rape, rape. Those are not offences that are going to be prosecuted summarily.

[Douglas Hoover]

I certainly can undertake to get back to the committee with a list and the numbers, but I'm fairly certain that the majority of sex offence convictions in Canada are in fact summary.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I would like that information, if you could, in writing. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I don't think we have any questions, Mr. Chair, but I do believe there was a motion on the floor. I think we should deal with it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I wanted to give everybody an opportunity while we had the witnesses here to ask some questions in regard to it.

Is the committee ready to proceed with discussion of the motion?

We don't have to go in camera unless you wish.