Public Safety Committee on Feb. 12th, 2009

[Commr William Elliott]

Our policies do address the requirement for medical assistance and indicate that our officers should, where they can, have on hand the individuals who can provide medical assistance. But as I indicated in my opening comments, that is not always possible.

A piece of information that this committee and I heard yesterday--this was during the appearance of the Minister of Public Safety, and it came from the head of the Correctional Service of Canada--was that some 86%, if my memory serves me correctly, of individuals who are incarcerated in federal penitentiaries have problems of addiction. I think that gives you some idea of the magnitude of the issues our officers face in the streets and in communities across the country, and of the impracticality, frankly, of always having medical personnel on hand when we respond to incidents that may involve people with addiction problems.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is actually up. Unless it's really brief and very important—

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

In fact, I am struck by one aspect of the specific example you gave, which in fact illustrates what happened quite clearly: it would seem to me that one would suspect a mental illness. If someone is attacking his father, perhaps you should endeavour to bring along someone who has psychological training to deal with the case rather than immediately use the taser.

[Commr William Elliott]

Well, Mr. Chairman, I guess I'd indicate that in an ideal world we would have had that. But frankly, I'd rather have our officers arrive in time to save the father's life without medical help than with medical help after the axe had already been wielded.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I noted your comments and the concern about having a common vocabulary with other police forces across the country. For a long time during this committee hearing this morning, I was worried about a common vocabulary even amongst those in the room, because everybody else was using the term “taser” and you were referring to a CEW. But I note that you are now with us on that, and we're able to call them tasers with you.

Across the country, of course—to get to this common vocabulary point—what we and the public are concerned about more than vocabulary is standards. Can you tell us that the standards would be the same across the country?

I recognize, by the way, that we have seen some changes in the RCMP policy and approach since this committee made its report, and that's to the credit of the work of this committee, I would suggest. You have said that now the policy is not to use the taser for the purpose mainly of dealing with people who are resisting, that there must be a threat and the use of the taser must be necessary.

Is that the common standard that now applies, if you're...? I know you're not speaking for all the police forces, but you say you have a common vocabulary, at least, with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Can people across the country expect that this would be the standard applied in the use of tasers?

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, to clarify with respect to vocabulary, Taser, of course, is a brand name. It's used in common parlance, just as many of us would refer to a tissue as a kleenex. Our policies call the device a conducted energy weapon, which it is, but the fact of the matter is that all of the CEWs in our inventory are Taser brand CEWs.

With respect to the standard, certainly the standard that is outlined in our policy applies to all of our officers in some 750 detachments across the country. I think the direction we have taken is the direction that the police community generally is taking, but I would not say that those changes have been universally adopted in Canada at this point in time.

And Mr. Chair, the issue of individuals suffering from mental illness or whose actions are as a result of the ingestion of drugs or alcohol is a huge problem for the RCMP—it is a huge problem for law enforcement. Unfortunately, many of the incidents we're called upon to deal with are as a result of mental illness or the ingestion of substances, and we have a number of examples where the use of the CEW has helped to resolve those situations without any serious injury.

Last evening I saw a report posted by CBC, the heading being “Sussex man supports RCMP use of Taser on wife”: “The husband of a Sussex woman who police subdued with a stun gun last week said the RCMP officers made the right choice during the altercation.”

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Commissioner, I only have a few minutes here, so maybe you can save that for a little later. We do understand, all of us here, the important work that the RCMP does and that they risk their own lives in pursuit of public safety, but we only have a certain ability to talk here.

You did refer, obviously, to CEW as a weapon. I hear words from you and from RCMP officers and others about the taser being a tool in the tool box. I think this perhaps trivializes the fact that this is a weapon, and a weapon that has to be deployed in particular circumstances. But would you not agree that this weapon should be tested regularly, as other weapons may be tested, or as the breathalyzer machine you use in police enforcement is regularly tested and calibrated, and that it's not really a big deal that you would regularly test weapons you use to ensure that they're working properly, that they're safe for both the user and any members of the public who might be affected?

[Commr William Elliott]

I'd agree with all that.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

If I'm out of time, I'll stop here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. A very brief round for Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'd like to follow up on Mr. Ménard's question with respect to having medical personnel.

The RCMP police a lot of rural Canada in the provinces outside of Ontario and Quebec. Fair enough? Yes?

[Commr William Elliott]

Yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

We hear all the time that it is difficult to staff hospitals. Given the availability of medical people, it would be very difficult to find medical people to attend with a police officer in an emergency?

[Commr William Elliott]

Absolutely.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Not all our problems with respect to drugs are that people have ingested illegal drugs. We do have a problem with the police agencies being called to attend situations where people have not taken their prescribed medications?

[Commr William Elliott]

Yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

So it becomes a very difficult situation to totally fulfill the expectations of some folks for any police agency to have medical personnel attend on all those situations where you may or may not know you're going to need to deploy a taser.

[Commr William Elliott]

I'd agree with that.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Half that issue would be that when the police officers get a call to attend, they don't always know what the emergency is.

[Commr William Elliott]

That is often the case. If I may, can I just quote again, briefly, from our policy:

Acutely agitated or delirious persons may be at a high risk of death. If an individual is in an acutely agitated or delirious state and, whenever possible, when responding to reports of violent individuals, request the assistance of emergency medical services. If possible, bring medical assistance to the scene.

Again, that, certainly in our view, is responsive to the recommendations of the committee. However, there are real issues with respect to the practicality of always having medical assistance at the scene.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We're going to suspend for a few minutes and clear the room. I remind members that you can keep one staff person in.

I'd like to thank you, Commissioner and Mr. Madill, for appearing before this committee at quite short notice.

We'll suspend for a few minutes to clear the room so we can discuss some business in private.

[Commr William Elliott]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. May I repeat my offer to the committee to make experts available to provide further technical briefings, if you think that would be helpful?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

[Proceedings continue in camera]