Public Safety Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Steve Sullivan]

No. In fact, a couple of times I think I said that victims obviously have a vested interest in an appropriate sentence that holds offenders accountable. Victims want to see that. My point was that whether the sentence is longer or not, it doesn't really address the real needs they have on a daily basis in trying to heal their wounds, provide food for their families, or get counselling for their kids. But yes, they have an interest in an appropriate sentence.

I know your time is short. I'll be brief. The Prime Minister is a lot smarter than I am. He knows that if he mentions Karla Homolka, it's a story the media's going to talk about. My point was that she wasn't someone who should have been talked about during the national victims of crime awareness week.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I appreciate your clarification on that point.

I too want to suggest to you, sir, that as a victims' advocate, I speak with families often. I can tell you that Paul Cherewick's family is very concerned about the sentence. Paul Cherewick was murdered. His family is concerned about the accused's sentence. Of course, he was out on bail. They knew he was a fairly dangerous person. Their son was murdered as a result of an interaction with him. They were worried another offence would occur, and, sure enough, he almost killed another person while waiting for bail.

I take slight issue with your position. Again, I've done this for a very long time. I believe that at times, case by case, victims care about the sentence, how long the sentence is, when the sentence is imposed, and when the person is to be removed from society, because they care about public safety. It's why I believe we have so much support from victims when we talk about making public safety a priority, for example, when providing pardons.

In that case, do you not agree that that statement is important and that victims get some kind of satisfaction out of that statement? Can you give me that?

[Steve Sullivan]

I'll agree with you on this: I think sentencing is important to victims. I guess we might disagree on how important it is to victims and whether it really addresses their needs. I too have been with families who were concerned about the ultimate sentence and didn't think it was appropriate for the harm committed.

I don't know that we disagree. Maybe we disagree to a certain degree, but sentencing is a part of the process.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I hate to interrupt, but I only have a little time.

That's what I wanted to hear. It's a part of many things. I don't think we give credit to some of the victims, and I don't want to take that away from them. They clearly say this is an important part.

Ricky Acheson is someone who committed some severe crimes. His own family begged that he not be released, because they felt he was at risk to reoffend. The risk assessment reports that we rely on so heavily and put so much money toward, because we want to see the right thing done, would mean nothing if we didn't acknowledge the value to public safety that they actually provide.

I know I'm running out of time, but I want to ask you a quick question. There's a national victims' services program. I want to give you an opportunity to explain this to us. I know additional funding was given to Correctional Service of Canada for the national victims' services program. Can you tell us what CSC did with the additional funding?

[Steve Sullivan]

I think I mentioned it, but if I didn't then I apologize. It was part of the announcement in 2007 for the victims initiative. Previous to that, Correctional Services provided information to victims, but it was often done through individuals working in prisons who had a bunch of other duties, and they also had to call the victims at times. So they took the money and created a stand-alone service for victims, and my understanding of a recent assessment of the program is that the victims are very satisfied with it.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

And that helped them know when there was a release, right?

[Steve Sullivan]

Absolutely.

It's a better service, and it has better interaction with victims.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Right, because some of them were afraid. This is why I come back to saying there are so many tools that we have to help victims. I don't want to take away from any victim's desire or need to know about that part of this. I do believe we are doing a job to address rehabilitation. I believe we are doing a job to address corrections needs and offenders' needs, and we are doing what we can for victims as well.

I have to concur with what was said earlier about the money. You would have no funding and had no funding even though for decades victims had been asking for help. You would have nothing if it weren't for the fact that in the year the Conservative government took power, money was dedicated so that your office could be created.

[Steve Sullivan]

I worked with families for 15 years to see the office created, so absolutely.

Regarding the Correctional Services program, I'll say that we've worked incredibly well with them to address some really challenging cases that victims brought to us. The dedication of those people there, and at the National Parole Board as well, to really resolve those issues actually made our success possible.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Very good. Thanks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you, Ms. Glover.

We have gone through our entire lineup, but it has been indicated to me, Ms. Mourani, that you have one brief question you still want to ask.

Mr. Kania, you have a brief question, and then Ms. Mourani.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

Briefly, Mr. Sullivan, in the 2009-10 budget there was $1.3 million. In 2010-11 there was $1.3 million. For 2011-12, it's empty for now, but I assume that's going to change. In any event, my question is whether you have enough money to do your job at the $1.3 million, assuming that it was frozen again. Do you think it should be something else? And if so, why?

I'm just looking to make sure that you're able to do your job based on your mandate.

[Steve Sullivan]

Setting the office up, we actually, in the first two years, weren't fully staffed, so we didn't use all the money. It's just been in the last year or so that we've been fully staffed, and I think the results we've had prove that. Our calls are up. Our Internet visits are up, I think, 100%. Our office is a relatively new office, and it's challenging to get the word out to victims that we exist, but I think we're doing a better job with that.

Moving forward, I have visions of what we might have done and it might have required more funding. The next ombudsperson might have different views.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

If you were putting a request in now for the next fiscal year, what would it be, and why?

[Steve Sullivan]

To be honest, I haven't thought about it, because I know I'm not going to be here for the next year. But look, the more people in that office who know how to help victims, the more resources we have, the more help we're going to give victims and the more work we're going to do with other departments.

In the coming years, I think you'll see the office grow in its effectiveness, and I think it will require more funding as it's more established.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani, you had a brief question.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sullivan, your Every Image, Every Child report is key. Right now, children are being sexually assaulted, and at a younger and younger age. The violence they suffer is increasingly brutal, and the images are being shown on the Internet. The report says that 750,000 pedophiles are online at any given time, and that 37% are family members and 36% are acquaintances. So they are people who can be caught easily. They are not in Thailand or other countries where they cannot be located.

Correct me if I am wrong. In the 1990s, almost 5,000 images were said to be on the Internet, and today there are millions of images and videos. Currently, police officers have to make a request to obtain an IP address. IP addresses are essential. Let's talk about Bills C-46 and C-47. Bill C-46 sought to require Internet service providers to have the technology to keep information, and Bill C-47 made it possible to obtain IP addresses. Both bills died on the order paper, Mr. Sullivan.

As we speak, children are being assaulted. Police have been waiting for 10 years, and nothing has happened. Are you angry? I am, because these two bills did not come back up. Do you think that is normal?

[Steve Sullivan]

I was really encouraged when the government took the step to introduce the bill, because in 2007 there had been an indication that this wasn't going to be the case.

Right now, depending on where you are in the country and what ISP company you're working with.... Some ISPs will actually cooperate with law enforcement, and some won't. A lot of the bigger companies will.

We've heard about cases from law enforcement. They have an IP address. They actually are able to trace the guy to where he lives, and they go, because he's trading in child pornography. There was a case, I think, that the Ottawa police worked on with law enforcement on the other side of the river, in Aylmer. They actually found and arrested the person. He had with him his 11-month-old son, who he was sexually abusing. Now, law enforcement had no information that this was taking place. They had no idea that this child was in that situation. Had they not tracked him down, that child today, four years later, would still be undergoing sexual abuse.

The longer we delay these initiatives to give law enforcement the tools, the more kids are going to be abused. I think that makes everybody angry. We have the tools. We have agreement, frankly, from what I hear, in Parliament, to move forward to give law enforcement the tools, yes, to catch the bad guys but also to save kids' lives. That's tremendous.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In closing, you have been the federal ombudsman for victims of crime ever since the position was created in 2007. If you looked at everything that this government has done, be it in terms of legislation, funding, repression, prevention or rehabilitation, what percentage of the government's efforts would you say went to fighting crime and what percentage went to helping victims? From 2007 to today, how would you rate the government's actions in terms of percentages? Did it spend 90% of its efforts on fighting crime and 10% on helping victims? Give me a percentage.

[Steve Sullivan]

That's a difficult question. I would say that a number of our recommendations the government has acted on in legislation. Most of the legislation hasn't been passed yet, but steps have been taken. Honestly, I'm not sure I can give you a number.

I'll tell you what concerns me, though:if I were the Prime Minister today the Internet bill would be my absolute priority; it would be number one in the justice reform areas.

There are a couple of other areas that I think in corrections.... As far as my time as ombudsman is concerned, that report you're referring to is I think one of the most important things we ever did. That absolutely has to be a priority. The child access centres have to be a priority. Those are children who we know we could save and rescue, and make a difference in their lives.

And I agree, Ms. Glover, that sentencing is important and that victims have an interest in it, but we can't over-emphasize that in the importance of victims, because it's not going to save that child. Whether or not we put the guy at the end of day in prison for ten years or fifty years, if we don't get that child out of the home it doesn't matter. That 12-year-old girl on the streets, her pimp and her customer aren't going to jail for a very long time, if they go to jail at all, but we can get her off the streets. That's really what I'm talking about, the balance to say let's hold offenders accountable, but let's save victims' lives when we can. Let's put money into those programs to get those kids and give them a start in life.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Davies, please.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I just have a couple of quick questions, Mr. Sullivan. When we're talking about negative media and there are negative things and positive things, your quote was that you learned about the media picking up the negative over the positive, and you said, “I learned that in my career prior to being ombudsman.” Yesterday you were quoted as saying that the federal government is shortchanging victims and that victims of crime are “on the short end of the stick”. Those are pretty strong words, in light of the fact, I take it, that you were very aware that those words would be picked up. What I want to ask you is you must have done that deliberately, and I'm just wondering what message you were trying to send.

[Steve Sullivan]

I think the message was exactly what I said. Again, I come at this as the ombudsman for victims of crime. My sole mandate is to advocate to the government for victims of crime. If I see what appears to be money cut or areas that I think aren't being addressed where we could help rescue children, then I've been around the media long enough to know that they're going to report what you tell them, and if you tell them really strong things they're going to report that. So I didn't mince words. I was completely honest and forthright. I believe more needs to be done for victims in this country. I believe that right now, with this imbalance, they're being shortchanged.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Secondly, you talked about misperception in the public and you felt that it's important as part of the whole equation that reasonable information of what crime is gets out. Just about every credible source will tell us that crime rates are falling in just about every area. I think there are some exceptions, but generally as a trend it's going down. Have you seen those figures?