Public Safety Committee on May 4th, 2010

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Cheliak, I am going to talk to you since you are responsible for the registry. You said in your speech that, in 2009, approximately 7,000 registration certificates were revoked for public safety concerns.

So, to understand this correctly, is it long guns or all guns, whether long guns or handguns, that were removed for public safety reasons? What were the numbers?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

Thank you for the question, Madame.

That was just for long guns. There were 7,000 registration certificates revoked for long guns specifically. Those would be 7,000 individual firearms.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So they were firearms that legally belonged to individuals, and at some stage you decided that the firearms had to be removed for public safety reasons. Is that it?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

Yes, that's correct. Public safety reasons can be court-ordered prohibitions for psychiatric or mental health issues, for medical issues, or for other public safety issues.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Ms. Hoeppner told us earlier that individuals who have registered firearms—law-abiding Canadians, that is—who have a license, are half as likely to commit a crime with a firearm.

In your opinion, logically, would someone who has a firearm and “flips out” use the gun or not? In your experience, is it people who, at one point, lose control but are in good standing with the law?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

There are a number of reasons that people have their firearms certificates revoked. Notwithstanding the fact that there are court-ordered prohibitions, there are prohibitions relating to mental health issues, when we receive medical reports and things like that. Those prohibitions are generally for people who are diagnosed, and the medical profession within Canada will alert our chief firearms officer as required. The officer will do a review of the licence application and make a decision to revoke the person's licence and their certificates.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

My understanding is that you can take away firearms from people who do not have mental health issues, but in cases where you have received reports of spousal violence, or about a depressed young person who makes the decision to go in a school with a firearm and shoot at all the kids. If a school notifies you about such a comment, you are going to check and remove the firearms as a preventive measure. You are not necessarily removing the firearms from criminals. It can also be anyone in the street.

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

Yes, it's really about public safety. When we are alerted about an issue that has potential tragic consequences for public safety, we will take action through the chief firearms officer and our registrar of firearms.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Very well. I have another question.

Earlier, Ms. Hoeppner said that if Mr. Chair had three firearms—

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have one minute left.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

—he could give them to Ms. Hoeppner and it would be legal.

Can an individual who has three firearms give them to someone else without notifying the Canadian Firearms Registry? The person could donate those firearms, without registering them as such, and it would be legal. Personally, I believe it is illegal. The moment the firearm is given to someone else—whether it is sold or donated—it should be reported to the Canadian Firearms Registry. Am I mistaken?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

That's correct. There's a requirement when the transfer of a firearm takes place, when it changes hands from one person to another.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I have a question for Ms. Senior.

Could you tell us about a specific case related to prevention and spousal violence—without giving names or other information—like Mr. Hanson did, where the registry saved a life?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Mourani, that was for 30 seconds.

[Paulette Senior]

Okay. We can send the answer in writing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, you're going to have to do that. I'm sorry.

Mr. Comartin, please.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here.

Commissioner Sweeney, I'm going to ask Chief Superintendent Cheliak this question because I think he's better equipped to answer. I'm not slighting you.

I want to deal with the four million requests last year. When those requests come into your offices, are they for any purpose other than to ascertain whether a firearm is in that residence or place of business that they're going to?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

I'm sorry, I only have the 2008 statistics in front of me, but I would be pleased to provide the 2009 statistics to you in writing.

The 2008 statistics come from the commissioner's annual firearms report, tabled earlier this year. Of those 3.4 million queries per year, 2.3 million were specifically related to persons queries; 941,000 were related to address queries, which cannot be done on CPIC but are direct CFRO queries; 74,000 were done on firearms serial numbers; and on and on, down the list. So the 2.35 million could be a very objective number, or unobjective number, subject to why the query was made. At times there is an auto-link query, when a person's query is done, with CPIC, to query the individual to determine if they have a licence and firearms registered to them. All of the address queries—almost one million a year in 2008—were specific to addresses, that is, to ascertain if there were firearms in a residence.

When we go back to the 2.3 million queries per year, we have to remember that there were 66 million CPIC queries on persons in 2008 as well. So when we say every CPIC query generates a CFRO query, that's not the case.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Some of the CPIC inquiries would also be by officers seeking information with regard to gun licensing and ownership.

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Even though they can't get the information, those inquiries would be included.

Does it vary in terms of where the inquiries are coming from? I'm going to be suspicious and suggest there are few coming from the chief of police's office in Calgary, given his testimony today. Does it vary in terms of the quantity across the country?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

Yes, it does. I can't get into the specifics of Calgary. I don't have the information in front of me.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Too bad.

With regard to, again, the figures that we heard from Chief Hanson, of the number of weapons that were not registered in his city, they clash rather dramatically. I think you used the figure of 88% that were unregistered. In the figures you gave us today, across the country, in 2009, the figure would have been somewhere around 40% to 45%, in fact, that were registered, of the weapons that you were involved with. Could you give us any explanation as to why there are so fewer registered weapons in Calgary than in the rest of the country?

[C/Supt Marty Cheliak]

I have no idea. I would have to do some research on that, and I would be pleased to provide that to the committee in writing.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Chief Hanson, do you have any explanation for that? It's a 100% difference between your city and the national figures.