Public Safety Committee on March 16th, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'd like to bring this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security. This is our second meeting in this session. We are continuing our study of federal corrections, focusing on mental health and addiction.

We would like to welcome our witnesses this afternoon: Brenda Tole, retired warden; Ruth Martin, clinical professor; and Amber-Anne Christie, a research assistant. We welcome all of you to the committee.

At the beginning of your remarks, you may introduce yourselves a little more than I have and tell us about yourselves. Then you'll have approximately ten minutes each for an opening statement.

In case you have never been before the committee, I'll mention that we usually start with the official opposition making some comments and asking questions, and then we just go around, giving all the political parties a turn. That's how we run the committee.

Have you decided who would like to go first?

Ms. Christie, go ahead.

[Amber-Anne Christie, Research Assistant, Women in 2 Healing]

I'm just going to read my bio.

I am a Cree first nations woman. I was first incarcerated at the age of 20 and returned to prison 30 times over the next five years. In my most recent incarceration I spent six months inside of Alouette Correctional Centre for Women. Previous to that, I had spent time in Surrey Pretrial and Burnaby Correctional Centre for Women, as I suffered from a severe heroin addiction for many years and lived on the streets of Vancouver's east side. I have been free of drugs and alcohol and prisons for four and a half years. I am a mother and a contributing member of society.

I am a research assistant for the University of British Columbia, working in community-based participatory research. I am employed by the project called Doing Time and I am part of the Women in 2 Healing team in which I interview women who have been incarcerated in a provincial institution within the last year. I interview women at zero, three, six, nine, and twelve months after their release from prison and ask them about how they are achieving their nine health goals.

We also have a community-based participatory research project called Aboriginal Healing Outside Of The Gates, which I will get into in more depth in my opening statement. Our goal is to support women in the reintegration process so that they can safely reintegrate into their chosen communities.

Thank you for having me here today, and I hope that you will listen to what we have to say.

As I sat and reviewed the documentary footage made of Ashley Smith's time in prison, I couldn't help but find myself being able to identify with her. I myself have been in prison 30 times. Of those 30 times, 29 of them were spent either all in segregation or the majority of time in segregation. I can identify completely with the desperate need to have human contact and the loneliness and isolation that you feel being locked in a cell with nothing to do all day. I remember I would look forward to meals because I could read the labels of my drink containers over and over and over again. I was not segregated because of behaviour issues or security issues, but because I was withdrawing from heroin.

I was still unable to have anything in my cell to help me stay occupied, such as a book or a pen or paper. I looked forward to count, when the guard would come and count us and hopefully we'd have a nice guard to sometimes tell us how their day was. It was human contact.

I continued to go through those revolving doors until my last stay in corrections in 2005. For the first time I was sent to Alouette Correctional Centre for Women and for the first time I was not segregated. This happened to be when Brenda Tole was the warden and Ruth Martin was the doctor in the prison. When I arrived at Alouette I was checked into health care, and to my amazement I was sent to a unit.

From there on I got a job in the institution, as it was a work camp, and I reconnected with family outside of prison with the help of a wonderful doctor who encouraged me to do so. I also received health care when I was in prison, something I had rarely ever encountered in other prisons. I was a very sick girl with many different complications from my drug use. I was on remand, so I was unable to access any of the programs geared towards substance abuse or anger management.

However, there was a program that was happening all around me that was hard to go unnoticed. There were babies in this prison. I was shocked when I first saw the babies. The way the prison was being run was more like a rehabilitation centre than a prison. It was amazing. Not only was there a library and a gym there, there was a native elder there to talk to. As well, there was drumming and dancing every Tuesday night. As a mother myself, I have to say that it helped me to remember the things I was giving up, and I know that the other inmates dealt with their problems and reacted differently because there was a baby there.

I was released from prison in October 2005, and I have not been back since. I will be the first to say that this exact prison changed my life. I had been in many prisons before, but this prison treated me like I was a person and not a number.

A year after my release I connected on Facebook with a group called ACCW alumni. We all met up outside of prison and started up the research that Ruth had started us on in the institution. Today I am employed by the University of British Columbia as a research assistant, and have been for over a year, and I am a team member of Women in 2 Healing. We research our passions with the hope to create change.

We are a supportive network of women who are facing the challenges of being incarcerated. Working with Women in 2 Healing has changed my life in so many ways. I can help other inmates today to face those challenges.

I also work for the Doing Time project. I interview women when they are released from prison, as well as at three, six, nine, and twelve months after release. We ask them questions about health care access, housing, community resources, drug use, spirituality, self-esteem, and employment, and numerous other questions. Our team has interviewed over 500 women.

We have just gotten to the halfway point of our third grant-funded project, another community-based participatory research project, and it's called Aboriginal Healing Outside of the Gates. In this project, we are doing interviews with aboriginal women who have been in a provincial or federal correctional centre.

The goal of this project is to see exactly what challenges women face after they have been in the community for a while, what kind of impact incarceration has had on their journey into reintegrating, and what the barriers are. We're also looking at what percentage of women have been accessing health care and community resources after their release.

What we have heard from women so far is that a big percentage of women have reverted to doing drugs and alcohol due to an inability to properly access resources and gain employment. But women still have hope that they will be able to make things change.

They have also told us that they need to treated with dignity and respect. That's not always the case after being incarcerated. They all have a need to not be pushed into anything after they've been incarcerated. They don't want that. I have to say that stable employment, a supportive network of safe people, and having someone who listens to me are the biggest positives in my life today.

Among some of the biggest challenges we see with women when they are released--and I want to stress this--is that women are not getting housing referrals when they are released and they are ending up homeless. Of 500 women, 40% women leave prison homeless--that's 40%--and many more, a bigger majority, end up homeless within months. This has to change.

They're also not getting the proper drug and mental health treatment that they need and want. Also, they're not given enough places that take women from prison, the treatment centres that will accept women from prison. The ones that do accept them have long waiting periods, as the majority of centres will not accept women from prison just because they've been in prison.

Giving a woman in prison a welfare cheque and saying “be on your way” is not rehabilitation. The gaps in the system need to be closed.

Thank you for listening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. We appreciate that.

Who's next?

Ms. Martin, go ahead.

[Dr. Ruth Martin, Clinical Professor, Department of Family Practice and Collaborating Centre for Prison Health and Education, University of British Columbia, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, for inviting me to be a witness.

I come wearing three hats. I juggle a few hats, but these are the ones I'm wearing today.

As a prison family physician, I've worked in corrections systems for 16 years, mostly with women and mostly in the provincial system, but I do have some experience with men's facilities and federal systems.

The second hat I wear is as a clinical professor in the UBC department of family practice. Amber has talked about some of the research in which I'm involved.

My third hat, more recently acquired, is as director of the Collaborating Centre for Prison Health and Education. It is a group of academics and community organizations--actually anybody who wants to join--that is looking at ways to facilitate collaborative opportunities for health education research service and advocacy for people in custody, their families, and communities.

I'd like to share with you five personal reflections that I formulated about mental health, primarily in female corrections. These personal reflections are consistent with prison health publications, which I've footnoted in my written submission to you. I'd be happy to supply any of the documents to you if you'd like to read them further at a later stage. Don't hesitate to ask me.

It's well established that prison populations throughout the world suffer more ill health than the general population, and that female prison populations suffer more ill health than male prison populations. As a prison physician I've witnessed this over the years. As I've witnessed women cycle in and out of the system over the years, I've come to learn that most women are incarcerated because of crimes due to their disordered health and social lives. Therefore I've come to realize and reflect that the key to women's successful reintegration into society lies with figuring out how to empower incarcerated women to improve their health.

The second reflection pertains to the aboriginal people, who are tragically overrepresented in our systems. Over the years I've listened to aboriginal patients and aboriginal colleagues explain to me about their understanding of health. They've taught me that mental health is not a stand-alone thing. It is closely interwoven with a person's physical, emotional, and spiritual health. I realize that I started off in my career with a very Eurocentric or western-centric view of health, and I've come to appreciate that in order to engage incarcerated people to improve their health, we all need to improve our cultural knowledge and sensitivity.

My third reflection that I wish to share with you is that women with incarceration experience are experts about their own health. This was reinforced for me during this participatory health research project that we started in prison. I thought we would focus our research on HIV, hepatitis C, and addictions, but in fact when we asked women in prison what they would like to research in order to improve their health they told us they wanted to become better mothers. They wanted to become involved in meaningful work. They wanted to improve their community support and have safe housing.

The goals that women in prison identified that were important to improving their health were very similar to my own goals and probably to your goals. They are consistent with the public literature that pertains to mental health, social inclusion, and health promotion. All of these published studies agree that in order to improve the mental health of a population we have to affirm people's self-confidence, engage people in decision-making processes, and focus on people's strengths rather than their deficits. Doing so will enhance their sense of hope and their belief that they can succeed and change.

A fourth reflection that I've learned through my work with the collaborating centre is that numerous multi-sector organizations are keen and eager to collaborate with prisons to foster health. In fact, they recognize that they should be playing a role, particularly in two components of service.

First, individuals in prison should be offered the best multidisciplinary, patient-centred prison services that we can, including health. The second component is that during their transition to the outside community, individuals should be offered well-coordinated continuity of care. I can share three examples of that: inter-ministerial collaborations in other countries on health, academic collaborations on health, and collaborations at the local prison community level, if you wish.

The final reflection I wish to address is that most of the incarcerated people I've met are not mentally healthy. The prevalence rates, as you know, vary, depending on how you diagnose mental illness or how you measure it. In the literature it varies from 12% up to between 76% and 80%, and you've heard those figures in the statements of your previous witnesses.

Most of the women I see in prison clinics do not fall into a mentally ill psychiatric diagnosis, nor do they warrant transfer to a psychiatric hospital or treatment centre. However, the majority of people I have met in prison suffer from mental health difficulties such as anxiety, insomnia, flashbacks to previous trauma, depressive episodes, interpersonal conflicts, and poor impulse control. Many also have substance dependence, which is associated with their mental health difficulties. Some may be related to an under-diagnosed or under-screened condition such as a learning difficulty or fetal alcohol syndrome.

Regardless, women in prison across the board tell me that if they could figure out how to improve their mental health while they're inside prison, they will have a better chance of succeeding when they leave prison. I have reflected on about six suggestions--probably more--over my experience of working with people in prison, and also reading the prison literature.

The first one would be that incarceration in this country should be viewed as an opportunity for individuals to improve their mental health and to turn their lives around. Therefore, we should be doing everything we can to nurture processes inside prison that demonstrate success in improving health.

The second one is that we should be incorporating into every correctional system participatory processes that listen to and act upon the voice of individuals with incarceration experience about ways to improve mental health.

The third one is that prisons are really stressful places to work. There's a real tension that staff experience between nurture versus security and it's very wearing on prison staff. The mental health of inmates is really influenced and impacted by the morale of prison staff. Therefore, prisons should adopt what the literature calls a “whole prison settings approach” for health promotion that engages staff and inmates, because then prisons will become more effective in helping the mental health of inmates.

The fourth suggestion is that healthy prison environments should be fostered, because healthy environments will reinforce the educational benefits of inmates who participate in prison educational programs. By contrast, unhealthy prison environments will negate and undermine the benefits of these programs.

The fifth one is that prisons that use creative alternatives to solitary confinement foster healthier mental health both for the staff and for the incarcerated individuals. The use of solitary confinement does not enhance an individual's mental health. It worsens it, especially among those with pre-existing mental health difficulties. In Canada, therefore, we should support and commend prison management teams that do not use solitary confinement. In fact, we should discourage the use of solitary confinement in Canada.

The sixth suggestion is that because the overall prison ethos influences the mental health of inmates and staff, we should do everything we can, from top ministerial levels all the way down the chain, to support prison management teams that create and sustain a healthy prison ethos.

Thank you very much for listening to my reflections, and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much. We appreciate that.

Ms. Tole, finally.

[Brenda Tole, Retired Warden of Alouette Correctional Centre for Women, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and committee members, I am very pleased to be here and to have this opportunity to speak to you regarding these very important issues within corrections.

My experience is in the British Columbia corrections system. I spent 36 years in this field, both in community and custody settings, and have worked with youth, men, and women. The last position I held was warden of the Alouette Correctional Centre for Women.

British Columbia has benefited over the years from its relationship with Correctional Service of Canada. CSC is generous and resourceful when sharing research and program and policy information. The provincial system houses remanded and sentenced offenders and immigration detainees. The maximum sentence length is two years less one day in the provincial system. However, people often spend long periods, sometimes several years, remanded and awaiting trial. All offenders who are admitted to CSC have been in the provincial correctional system prior to their admission. In B.C. there are approximately 2,500 in custody and 25,000 supervised in the community on bail or probation on any given day. The difference in sentence length has huge implications for program and service delivery and community reintegration, but both systems face many similar challenges. Corrections has a mandate to ensure public safety while exercising humane control. Balancing public attitudes to offenders with research and best correctional practice is a very difficult process.

This committee is focused on offenders with mental health disorders and offender programming. I'd like to talk a bit about interventions and initiatives that I have found to have a positive outcome for staff, contractors, and offenders in a custody setting. I'm going to focus on women offenders, which is the area of my most recent experience, but many of these issues are relevant to both populations.

Women make up approximately 10% of the custody population and due to the small numbers have been greatly influenced by the larger male population in areas of physical plant design, security, classification, risk needs assessment, and programs. When we opened Alouette Correctional Centre for Women, we had an opportunity to slowly move away from a model focused on security and control towards a more pro-social offender responsibility model. It is very difficult to move away from long-standing attitudes and ideas around safety and security. However, we found the more normalized environment made the centre safer for staff and inmates, and institutional violence and use of force incidents were greatly reduced.

I am mindful of time, so I will briefly list some of the factors I felt contributed to positive change at this centre.

The actual physical plant design and centre environment have a significant impact on staff and offenders, particularly those offenders suffering from mental health disorders. All benefit from access to natural light, fresh air, regular physical activity, and non-controlled movement whenever possible. It is important to note that this type of building is generally much cheaper to build and to maintain. Classification of women to the least restrictive setting needs to be a high priority. Women, particularly aboriginal women, tend to be classified to higher security levels than required. Placing people at the least restrictive setting using a good classification process immediately rather than making them apply for or earn the placement is a much more consistent and efficient process. All offenders, particularly those with mental health disorders, manage much better in a less restrictive and therapeutic setting.

For example, we had a number of offenders at Alouette who were on remand prior to moving to Correctional Services of Canada. They managed for periods of over a year at a medium open centre, which is what we had. When they were sentenced they moved to the federal system, and then were required to stay in a maximum security setting for two years due to policy. That's an example of how, from the viewpoint of classification, you can have a huge impact. Policy has no flexibility. It makes it very difficult to actually do what's in the best interests of everybody.

Offenders have a huge interest in programs and services in a correctional centre and if engaged can contribute to defining their needs. Open communication with staff and administration can reduce the development of a negative subculture, which often operates in a correctional centre. Offenders, supervised by staff, should be encouraged to take responsibility for appropriate aspects of programs and operations. Aboriginal women seem to be even more impacted by the isolation from their family and community. Programs that facilitate the return of these women to their community, under supervision of band or community justice components whenever possible, seem to present the most positive outcome. The ever-increasing over-representation of aboriginal women in custody continues to be of grave concern. It is a tragedy, and I do not think that more aboriginal programming and services within our present correctional environment will impact the situation.

Supporting aboriginal governments, organizations, and service providers to assume more responsibility for the management of aboriginal offenders presents the most promise.

Mutual respect between staff and offenders is critical for a safe and secure environment. Staff who engage offenders with respect and who focus on being professional and helpful contribute to an environment that is pro-social. A better working environment affects staff recruitment and retention and lowers rates of staff absenteeism. The positive aspects of good staff-offender relations are seen in program interest and participation. It needs to be recognized that the negative effects of being in custody increase with sentence length.

Good health services are one of the most important components of the correctional centre. Physical and mental health professionals who work in coordination with corrections in delivering consistent and timely health services, including preventive education, are essential. Providing health services to a community standard is an ongoing struggle. There is also a need for continuity of care upon reintegration into the community. Partnerships with provincial health authorities could provide continuity of care and community standards and would promote a “patient first, offender second” approach. Staff training from forensic mental health services has helped our staff, in the past, understand mental health symptoms and non-compliant behaviours from a different perspective. It has also exposed them to hospital model interventions for dealing with offenders who have mental health disorders.

The use of segregation, other than for serious disciplinary matters, has a very negative effect on offenders, particularly women and those with mental health disorders. I have not seen any benefit from isolating an individual from support, comforts, and human contact for extended periods of time. If anything, this procedure tends to escalate problem behaviours. What has benefited these offenders is not isolation but rather extra staff or contractors to engage with them and close attention from health professionals.

Self-harm is a very complex and difficult issue. In four years at Alouette, we had one minor incident of self-harm occur, and it was not repeated. I think it's important, when looking at self-harm, to see it not in isolation but to see it basically in the environment in which it happens. It's really a symptom of extreme emotional distress.

On women and their children, a high percentage of women in custody have dependent children. Women are often in centres that are large distances from their children and families. This should be a major consideration in any administrative transfer. Initiatives that promote and foster contact between women and their children is beneficial to both. These include enhanced visits, email, tapes, telephone calls, and letters. Research shows that the children of incarcerated women are more negatively impacted if the contact with their mothers is limited or absent. One of the most compelling factors for women to change their behaviour or lifestyle is pregnancy and having children. Having a supportive mother-baby program at Alouette had an amazing, positive impact on the mothers involved and on the other inmates and staff. This initiative was basically a health initiative, and it was done in conjunction with the Vancouver Women's Hospital, which had requested that we give consideration to it. They worked very closely with us on that program.

Of the 12 mothers who brought babies back from the hospital and were released to the community with their babies, 11 have remained out of custody. The initiative was also a partnership with several other ministries, community agencies, and women offenders and their families. It was based on the best interests of the child.

The one thing that is not in my notes that I would like to make a comment on is reintegration. Integration is really a combination of having the community involved inside the centre and with offenders outside the centre. The community is a very interested group that is quite willing to participate inside the centre. It will provide expertise and the standards of the community. That applies to a number of areas, including what Dr. Martin has talked about in terms of health, but also in terms of education and job preparation and vocational courses. There is an amazing source of information and program availability actually sitting right in the community.

I think it's really important for the community to have involvement in the centres. It's a way for the public to gain an education on what actually works for offenders and not necessarily the public perception we sometimes have, which is quite negative. It also reduces the fear factor.

In terms of increasing the number of temporary absences and the ability for offenders to return to the community, I think that supportive transitional housing in the community, particularly accommodation for women and children, is essential.

It's important to recognize that women tend to be associated with the same risk that men present to public safety, which is simply inaccurate. When it comes to release into the community, for that population, I think it presents an opportunity to really increase the access that women offenders have to the community.

I want to thank you for this opportunity. I'd be happy to answer questions the committee has.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll turn now to the official opposition.

Mr. Holland, do you want to go first?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

If I could start with Ms. Christie, I want to take the opportunity to thank you for your courage in coming before the committee and sharing your story. I think it's very instructive, and I know that it couldn't have been easy to share it

You had an experience where, like most inmates, you were facing an addiction issue. We know that over 80% of inmates in federal facilities face some kind of addiction issue. If you can reflect upon your first experience in prison, as you went there numerous times, can you think about what might have made a difference for you at that moment in time? Were you at a point in your life where that first interaction in a prison and with the judicial system could have been such that it might have led you to turn away from that path at the time?

[Amber-Anne Christie]

I think that if they would've let me out of segregation, I would've had the opportunity to go out and try to access the programs. I tried to access programs. After I was let out of segregation the first time, I've never been back. I had the ability to be able to access those things.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

You're talking about all the times you were there.

[Amber-Anne Christie]

It was one time.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

There was only one time that you were actually given the opportunity to pursue the services that you needed.

[Amber-Anne Christie]

Yes. For the majority of the time that I was in prison, I was in maximum security and I was segregated for drug withdrawal. It was only the last time, when they moved me to Alouette, that I was allowed out from segregation.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Ms. Martin and Ms. Tole, the problem I have is that there are literally billions of dollars slated for the construction of new prisons. I don't really see any money being put on the table for new programs, new services, and aid to the provinces to deal with early intervention. We have an exploding prison population. We know the female prison population is growing faster than any other prison population. We know women are more likely to face mental health issues and are more likely to potentially have self-harming incidents. The stakes are high, and yet you seem to be telling us that we need to invest in the front end.

Ms. Martin, how are we doing? You talked about the goals we need to hit and that we need to help women to integrate and move away from the problems they're facing. How are we meeting those goals? How do you feel about the trajectory of things right now?

[Dr. Ruth Martin]

I'm very dismayed by the trajectory. I've been working in this situation for 16 years. I see that when people are sentenced, they are sent to corrections, but I think the sentence is the punishment and being taken away from society is the punishment. From that moment on, first of all, everything should be done to stabilize any acute medical-mental conditions. Everything from there on in should be geared towards helping them with their overall health, so that when they leave, they will become contributing members of society.

We have to look at what is working and to do what is working. Building big massive structures, with lots of segregation units, is not going to help.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

You touched on this topic as well, Ms. Tole or Ms. Martin, but how do we get the continuity of care?

One of the things I'm hearing—and Ms. Christie, you mentioned it in your statement at the beginning—is that there's a lack of continuity. So people leave, and maybe they've been getting some support and are beginning to head in the right way. They go out and they find themselves homeless. They find themselves without any support to deal with their addiction. They don't have a support network in the community.

What are the elements that you think are needed on the other side of that prison wall to make sure that people get the support they need to not wind up back in prison all over again?

[Dr. Ruth Martin]

I think care is multi-faceted. It's health, but it's also mental health, and as Brenda alluded to, it's education. Canada probably hasn't done a very good job, but we actually can learn from other countries.

One of the documents I footnoted was a report from four countries—Australia, France, Norway, and Britain. Norway has obviously done it the longest. They have integrated not just collaboration with their national and public health care system, but they have actually transferred the health care over.

In Canada, in Nova Scotia, that has already happened. In Alberta, it is happening, and in B.C. we're certainly discussing it. I think the only hope in terms of health care, in terms of continuity of care when people leave but also ensuring that the standards of care inside prison are equivalent to the community standards, would be actually if the health care services are merged.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

We had an opportunity to visit both London and Norway, so I think it's instructive to revisit that example.

I would also maybe ask the following question. In terms of cost, it is much more expensive to incarcerate a female inmate than a male inmate. It's well over $100,000. I can't remember the exact figure. Have any of you taken a look at the cost of providing those types of services on the front end—in other words, after the first experience—versus having somebody go back in 10, 20, or 30 times, and the cost of incarcerating somebody over a period of a decade or less, that sort of contrast?

Maybe there's even a financial argument to be made here that it's actually cheaper to do it the right way.

[Dr. Ruth Martin]

Yes, I'm sure there is. Maybe your committee could look at resourcing that kind of study, because I'm sure there's a cost benefit, never mind a human rights argument as well in terms of equivalence of care.

I don't know, Brenda, if you have anything to add.

[Brenda Tole]

The only thing I would add is that I think some of the provinces are moving somewhat away from this, but corrections systems tend to feel that they must develop their own programs for everything, that whether it be health, education, or whatever the program is, they must create that. In reality, a good percentage of that is available in the community with partnershipping, which I think is a lot more economically viable. Also it gives you a link, because those organizations and ministries, and whatever you partner with, that are in the community are basically current all the time. The continuity comes, to some degree, with that partnership because those people are in the community already. So you get a tremendous spinoff from it.

Our experience is that a lot of those organizations, ministries, or other government agencies are quite willing to partner. They see the population as part of their community and they are quite willing to engage and do that. It's just that correction tends to be an entity upon itself and sticks to itself and is quite closed. In reality, I think it does us a disservice. I also think we lose a lot of the ability to educate the public and to have the community learn about the population and learn about what works and what doesn't work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll have to move on to the Bloc next.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to welcome the individuals who are appearing today, and to thank them for their testimony.

I need some clarification. Ms. Tole, in your presentation, you referred to the Correctional Service of Canada and the Alouette Correctional Centre. Does this centre come under provincial or federal jurisdiction?

[Brenda Tole]

It's provincial.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Right, since you referred to sentences that were two years less a day, this is a provincial institution. Is it a minimum-security establishment?

[Brenda Tole]

Yes, it's a medium open establishment.