Public Safety Committee on May 26th, 2010

[Etienne Blais]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to wrap it up there. I'm sorry, Ms. Mourani, you're out of time.

Mr. Comartin is next for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Dr. Maurice and Dr. Blais, in your paper today and in your comments you referred to a number of studies that showed diametrically opposed conclusions from Professor Mauser's yesterday.

Are you aware of Professor Mauser's work? Would you care to comment, not so much on the quality of the work but where it sits in relation to other work done by criminologists or other specialists in the conclusions he drew? In particular, I would ask you to address his conclusion that if you lived in a house where you had a long gun or any weapon, you were safer; that is, people who owned guns were less likely to commit crimes than people who didn't own guns; and the gun registry for both handguns and long guns has had no impact at all and may have created more crime. There was one more outrageous comment, but I can't remember what it was.

So basically there are two questions. Where do his conclusions fit in the mainstream of other criminologists, and are you are aware of his studies about methodology?

[Etienne Blais]

I'm going to answer, since I am conducting a research program on the prevention of trauma caused by firearms.

First, I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Mauser. He has done excellent work on firearms and there are two studies that are repeatedly cited in which he assesses the effect of Bill C-51 on robberies and homicides. That said, you have to be careful when you make associations. If we're talking, for example, about a trend in homicide rates or robbery rates, we can't associate that trend with the measures put in place by the government to combat firearm-related homicides and suicides.

In my opinion, and from experience, you have to know that Professor Mauser has done no studies on the impact of Bill C-68. We have conducted studies in accordance with the same statistical methods, which were very rigorous, and we came to the conclusion that, since Bill C-68, there has been an average of 50 fewer homicides a year and 250 fewer homicides a year committed by firearms, without any tactical displacement effect.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Professor Blais, are these conclusions the same as those of other criminologists in Canada?

[Etienne Blais]

Absolutely. I would say that one thing emerges. I've read a lot of reports by Gary Mauser—he quotes himself—and Gary Kleck, but he does not refer to other criminologists such as Philip Cook or people who work at Harvard, such as David Hemenway, Anthony Braga or David Kennedy, who was cited earlier. These are all major researchers who show that some firearms legislation and anti-firearms police programs are effective, but they aren't cited by Gary Mauser.

The same is true in self-defence cases involving firearms. He will cite the study that is the exception to the rule. However, all other researchers are unanimous: the biggest studies show that owning a firearm increases the risk of being killed, by suicide or by homicide. I would say this is a somewhat arbitrary selection from the scientific literature.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Merci.

Sergeant Grismer, from reading your paper and hearing your comments today, you have obviously been opposed to the registry for a good length of time. Does that include being opposed to the handgun registry?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

Absolutely not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Then I don't understand your position. The Auditor General made it very clear in the two reports she did that as far as costs and efficiency, 60% or 65% of the dollars were spent on licensing and the handgun registry and less than a third on the long-gun registry. Secondly, the accuracy of the figures on the handgun registry were no better than they were on the long-gun registry. Those were her determinations, particularly in the 2006 report.

Are you aware that those were the conclusions she drew on both the costs and the quality of the information in the handgun and long-gun registries?

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

I'm not aware of that aspect of the Auditor General's report. However, in comment on the accuracy of the restricted firearms registry and the prohibited firearms registry versus the long-gun registry, the information data contained in the long-gun registry was not obtained in the same fashion as that for restricted firearms and prohibited firearms, which for years, since 1934, have been registered by the RCMP and held within a national database.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

I suggest you read the report, because in fact what happened in that process was that the efficiency of the handgun registry was significantly impaired.

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

Well, can you let me finish answering the question?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

No, I haven't got time.

Chief Blair, with regard to the comment of Sergeant Grismer that he can't use the registry for a sworn statement to take out a search warrant--if I understood what he said--how many times do you use the registry for sworn statements?

[Chief William Blair]

My police services use the registry for sworn statements, to put affidavits before the courts and to obtain search warrants, on a daily basis. Police officers right across this country use the information from the registry and from the Canada Firearms Centre for judicial processes.

I believe you heard yesterday from my Attorney General when he commented on the value of that evidence that the Firearms Centre puts forward.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Let me interrupt again. Do you--

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thirty seconds, Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you feel you're breaking the law, that you would commit a criminal act every time one of those affidavits was sworn?

[Chief William Blair]

No, sir, absolutely not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

We'll go to the next round, to the Conservative side and Mr. Rathgeber for seven minutes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all the witnesses.

Chief Blair, on May 9 of this year you did an interview on CTV and you said,

...I consider lobbying a political activity, and the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, and the police community are quite content to leave the politics to the politicians...

Do you recall saying that?

[Chief William Blair]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I know you believe in the registry, so if I were to search the lobbyist registry, would I find any active lobbyists who are retained on behalf of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police?

[Chief William Blair]

Active lobbyists? We have not hired any lobbyists that I am aware of.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Well, sir--