Public Safety Committee on June 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, let's just take a moment.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Roger Préfontaine]

Amendments to a bill during clause-by-clause consideration can be moved on the floor by a member. However, it has been the practice, and a very practical and useful one, that members forward their amendments prior to the clause-by-clause meeting so copies can be made and translation can be ensured and verified. Also, we like to have time to have a look at the amendments to assess their receivability. If there are many amendments, it's important to put them in order of consideration by the committee, because sometimes it can be quite complicated.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

So relative to that, and just to make further comments about my earlier frustration comments—comments on comments here—Mr. Comartin is a veteran of the Hill, is he not? So he would have served on many committees over a period of time, I'm going to propose or observe. In my opinion, he would be the type of member, being a former lawyer, who would know those procedural conventions—for sake of a better word—that this would be the way to handle things. So for us to arrive here today prepared to go clause by clause, and to have a substitute for Mr. Comartin.... And I understand, it seems to be a very valid reason. There's perhaps a committee that has a greater priority at this moment. But for him, when he became aware of that, not to have prepared himself after the last witnesses were heard and when if he had amendments he could have presented those to the clerk and to the chair prior to the meeting, again just adds a little bit more frustration on top of it.

We're not talking about a junior member here; we're talking about someone who is a good MP and who should have known that's the way you go. It's all well and good that we're here talking about this, but really, let's get down to the business, as my colleague next to me, Candice, has said. Let's get down to the business of doing this and get through it.

I'll leave it at that, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have listened to all of my colleagues and I must say that I am very uncomfortable. I too would like us to do the clause-by-clause study of the bill today.

I further understand that Mr. Comartin had some difficulty with regard to being here. I believe that he is at another meeting, on Afghanistan. He is nevertheless the one who has followed this debate from beginning to end.

I am however very uncomfortable because we have approximately three hours left, counting today, to get somewhere. I believe that many people have appeared before this committee to tell us of the great importance of this bill, whether or not they were in favour of it.

We should at least be able to conclude this debate with some form of decorum and reach an outcome once and for all. I am hoping that we will find a solution, even if it means beginning today, within minutes — with a miracle, perhaps —, the clause-by-clause study of the bill, or else this filibustering will go on indefinitely. The ball is in my colleagues' court.

As for me, I am in favour of one or the other options. I am prepared to extend my hand to all of the parties in order that we begin clause-by-clause study of the bill now or to see us continue on this point.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Davies?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes, Mr. Chairman. I just talked with Mr. Comartin. Once again I want to stress that I thought I had the agreement of all the parties for this, but obviously we don't, so Mr. Comartin has instructed me that the New Democrats would withdraw our motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Might I finish, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. Chairman, I would simply like to finish, if you will allow me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Well, the point of order almost makes that unnecessary, but go ahead.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It is never unnecessary to say thank you to one's colleagues. I simply wished to thank Mr. Don Davies and Mr. Comartin for allowing us to continue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

On a point of order, I understand that the motion has been withdrawn, and I withdraw my amendment, so it's gone. Let's just get to clause-by-clause, then.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You've heard Mr. Davies' motion to withdraw; however, you cannot withdraw a motion without the permission of the committee to do so.

Does anybody want to speak to his withdrawing of this motion before I ask what the committee's will is on it?

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Just extremely briefly, so that the committee understands, Mr. Davies did not explain the whole story when I spoke with him earlier. He indicated that the House leaders had discussed it. I didn't have from him, as he just indicated, that the House leader from the Conservative Party did not respond, so that there was never an agreement among the parties.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I have two people, Ms. Glover and then Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm ready. Let's get on, please. I think we've debated this to death. I'm sure we all want to get down to work.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Did you say Ms. Glover, or did you say—?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I said Ms. Glover and then Mr. Holland.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's what I thought.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Glover is first, and then you can....

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Mr. Chair, the reason I want to add something is that I appreciate that Mr. Davies withdrew the motion; what I wasn't clear about is the fact that it was Mr. Holland who put forward an amendment.

I was glad that you allowed Mr. Holland to make a statement about withdrawing the amendment, but the way in which he did it made it seem as if you, Mr. Chair, don't have any authority here. And it's bothersome, when you also indicate to me that it's my turn and then Mr. Holland talks over me. I am again feeling, Mr. Chair, that we are not playing fair here.

The reason we didn't quickly—as quickly as Mr. Holland expected us to—jump to the pump is that while I appreciated the motion's being withdrawn by Mr. Davies, we still had one extra step to do, which is procedural. There are procedures here. We are supposed to follow them, and the fact that Mr. Holland doesn't appreciate that we don't get to them as quickly as he'd like and snaps at us all, I don't appreciate. I don't appreciate that.

I'm glad the amendment has formally been withdrawn, which should have been done through the chair rather than through a snap attack. Nevertheless, Mr. Chair, I am concerned again about the tone that Mr. Holland continues to use and the talking over members who procedurally are on the list ahead of him.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Yes, thank you.

Procedurally Mr. Davies cannot just withdraw the motion, and that's why I have to have some discussion here before we vote on it. The motion once tabled belongs to the committee; it's no longer just his motion. So that's why we're having this discussion.

Mr. Davies, you are next on my speaking list.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I just want to clarify something that Mr. MacKenzie said. I don't know whether I misspoke or he misunderstood, but I didn't suggest that the House leaders had met and agreed. I said that there was a request that had been made to the government House leader, Mr. Jay Hill, for which we did not get the courtesy of a reply; that is what I said.

The agreement I was referring to that I thought we had—and again this was my understanding—was my discussion with Mr. MacKenzie, Mr. Holland, and Madam Mourani, prior to this meeting starting, about the motion. That's what I thought we had agreement on. I didn't mean to suggest that the House leaders had reached any agreement. That was never anything I suggested or said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let me ask you to clarify. I understand that you said “I withdraw my motion and that we proceed to clause-by-clause”. Is that what you said?