Public Safety Committee on July 5th, 2010

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Thank you, Director Fadden, for being here.

Of course we know that espionage is not new and that Canada is certainly not immune to it.

I'd like to go back and quote from the 1994 CSIS annual report. I can imagine you don't have it in front of you, but I'll quote:

A number of characteristics have emerged in this fragmented and destabilized global security intelligence environment. Apart from giving shape to the post Cold War era, these trends call for flexibility and adaptation by the agencies charged with ensuring the security of Western nations. Among those trends are the following: Numerous countries maintain intelligence services that operate outside their own borders; many are currently active against Canadian interests in Canada or abroad. With a shift from military to economic objectives, countries continue to use covert means to steal Canadian information and technology to enhance their economic advancement.

That was from the 1994 CSIS annual report.

I'd like to also quote from the 1997 CSIS annual report:

Among the threats to the security of Canada identified in the CSIS Act are "foreign influenced activities within or related to Canada that are detrimental to the interests of Canada and are clandestine or deceptive or involve a threat to any person." Such activities are exacerbated when representatives of foreign governments attempt to influence, persuade, coerce or threaten former citizens now resident in Canada, and are made worse when two or more countries are competing for the loyalty of the same ethnic community in Canada. Foreign influenced activities are a violation of Canadian sovereignty and a threat to its citizens, and the Service works through the courts to protect Canadians from such activities.

So the threat of foreign influence is addressed in the CSIS Act itself. One can only conclude that if foreign influence was included in the original CSIS Act, it has been recognized as a serious concern for some time.

I believe you mentioned that CSIS has been reporting on the threats basically since its inception. Can you tell us how the threat of undue foreign influence has actually evolved over the years?

[Richard Fadden]

Like its close colleague espionage, I think it's the sort of thing that varies a great deal over the years. It's quite fluid. It depends in large measure what's happening around the world as well as in Canada.

To give an example that is in the public domain and that's been talked about a great deal, when there was a civil war in Sri Lanka we had real concerns in this country about LTTE and what they were doing or not doing. So for a brief period there was an upswing in activity concerning foreign interference. Over the years it has gone up and down, depending upon particular circumstances. I think today it's probably more than it was 10 or 15 years ago, but it's very hard to put a precise statistic to it. But we have had examples of this, as you said, virtually since the service was created.

[Paul Calandra, Conservative, Oak Ridges—Markham, ON]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Don Davies]

I'm sorry, you're out of time.

Monsieur Proulx.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Fadden, you were saying that you would be briefing government very shortly. In your vocabulary, “very shortly” means what?

[Richard Fadden]

I would say a matter of weeks, not months.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

You're saying weeks--

[Richard Fadden]

Yes, sir.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

--not months, so therefore, a maximum of four weeks.

[Richard Fadden]

Yes, sir.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you.

You said a little while ago that you had asked the national security adviser for advice on how to treat the subject with provinces. Did you get any answers yet, sir?

[Richard Fadden]

Thank you.

I have a preliminary answer. The national security adviser asked the Ministry of Public Safety to look into this as well. Some work has been done. It's an area in which there's actually a fair bit of activity, because the provinces are more and more involved in material that we do, both in terms of security clearances and in sharing of threats and what not. So there had been some work done on this that I wasn't really aware of, but I understand they've almost completed their work, as well.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Fadden, did you discuss your testimony here today with anyone in the Prime Minister's Office, the Privy Council Office, the department or the minister's office?

[Richard Fadden]

Today, yes, absolutely, Mr. Chair. I discussed it with my minister's office, with the Privy Council Office and, of course, with my colleagues at the service.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

And what did those officials tell you not to say to the committee, this morning?

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Richard Fadden]

I would not say they expressed their points of view quite that way. In fact, I was never told not to say certain things or anything like that. We just talked about the setting in which I made my statements, they reviewed the remarks I had submitted for their comments, and the discussion was more general in nature.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

They did not advise you not to say certain things. Did they urge you to play up other subjects?

[Richard Fadden]

Generally speaking, no, Mr. Chair.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Fine.

[Richard Fadden]

Our discussions began with the remarks you heard earlier this morning, and we discussed the matter of emphasis here and there rather than a specific issue.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Fadden, do you feel comfortable telling us the names of the countries to which you referred in your speech or your interview?

[Richard Fadden]

No, Mr. Chair, and not just because it involves national security, but also because it involves international relations.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Fine.

The Premier of Ontario, Mr. McGuinty, and the Premier of British Columbia, Mr. Campbell, have asked that you provide more information in order to ease people's concerns.

Have you spoken with Mr. McGuinty or Mr. Campbell since your interview?

[Richard Fadden]

No, Mr. Chair. As I said, we did not speak with anyone, except for the two authorities I mentioned, and we want to complete our analysis and report to the government.